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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6002432" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>And yet, without disassociated mechanics I find D&D un-immersive. I find AD&D literally throws out any semblance of possible immersion I had the second we hit one minute combat rounds. I find I am utterly unable to think into the head like a fighter unless I am getting limited and changing opportunities as well as my standard attacks. Spamming a full attack action simply does not cut it for skirmish combat for me.</p><p> </p><p>And other disassociated mechanics are necessary for me to be able to get the outcomes I want.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p><em>Some</em> people who complain about loss of immersion. Others find the 4e by far the most immersive edition for playing classes with supposed disassociated mechanics (with one exception; I can play a skirmish fighter in 3.X and not completely lose immersion when I'm doing what I'm meant to be good at under one condition: I'm using the Book of 9 Swords).</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>But as has been explained in this thread, 4e fulfills one of the two promises D&D has always offered better than any other edition. It's not the game Gygax wrote. But it is the epic dragon-slaying game from the Red Box and 2e tried to promise.</p><p> </p><p>If you want a genuine "back to the dungeon" experience, fine. But you'll have to throw 2e out to do that. Go right back to 1e, B/X, or even Brown or White Box. Or is "promises but fails to deliver" part of the authentic D&D experience to you? It makes "Playing another game that actually does deliver" part of mine...</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>And when Mearls announced that 4e was not to be Vancian, Gencon <em>cheered</em>. Can we actually have that promise fulfilled. Wizards no longer auto-lobotomising by having the memories of spells ripped from their brains? And can we end the daily cycle in which casters get literally everything back every day - and fighters are still down their hit points. This is bad from a gamist perspective, a narrativist one, and a simulationist one (Gygax had a no resting in the dungeon addendum that meant that in old school it was the trip that mattered).</p><p> </p><p>Why is it that your problematic should be treated differently from mine? Mysteriously the anti-Vancian contingent are being utterly ignored. The wizard is pure Vancian - despite the only argument I've ever heard for a Vancian wizard on a daily cycle boiling down to tradition.</p><p></p><p>Also mysteriously the pro-powerful fighter contingent is largely ignored. The first playtest fighter was a bad joke of a class (even if they'd made the fighter a 2e fighter it would have been an improvement). To be fair the new one is better.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6002432, member: 87792"] And yet, without disassociated mechanics I find D&D un-immersive. I find AD&D literally throws out any semblance of possible immersion I had the second we hit one minute combat rounds. I find I am utterly unable to think into the head like a fighter unless I am getting limited and changing opportunities as well as my standard attacks. Spamming a full attack action simply does not cut it for skirmish combat for me. And other disassociated mechanics are necessary for me to be able to get the outcomes I want. [I]Some[/I] people who complain about loss of immersion. Others find the 4e by far the most immersive edition for playing classes with supposed disassociated mechanics (with one exception; I can play a skirmish fighter in 3.X and not completely lose immersion when I'm doing what I'm meant to be good at under one condition: I'm using the Book of 9 Swords). But as has been explained in this thread, 4e fulfills one of the two promises D&D has always offered better than any other edition. It's not the game Gygax wrote. But it is the epic dragon-slaying game from the Red Box and 2e tried to promise. If you want a genuine "back to the dungeon" experience, fine. But you'll have to throw 2e out to do that. Go right back to 1e, B/X, or even Brown or White Box. Or is "promises but fails to deliver" part of the authentic D&D experience to you? It makes "Playing another game that actually does deliver" part of mine... And when Mearls announced that 4e was not to be Vancian, Gencon [I]cheered[/I]. Can we actually have that promise fulfilled. Wizards no longer auto-lobotomising by having the memories of spells ripped from their brains? And can we end the daily cycle in which casters get literally everything back every day - and fighters are still down their hit points. This is bad from a gamist perspective, a narrativist one, and a simulationist one (Gygax had a no resting in the dungeon addendum that meant that in old school it was the trip that mattered). Why is it that your problematic should be treated differently from mine? Mysteriously the anti-Vancian contingent are being utterly ignored. The wizard is pure Vancian - despite the only argument I've ever heard for a Vancian wizard on a daily cycle boiling down to tradition. Also mysteriously the pro-powerful fighter contingent is largely ignored. The first playtest fighter was a bad joke of a class (even if they'd made the fighter a 2e fighter it would have been an improvement). To be fair the new one is better. [/QUOTE]
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