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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="JamesonCourage" data-source="post: 6015535" data-attributes="member: 6668292"><p>While people did have contradictory claims about 4e (and 3.X, etc.), I disagree with these terms being necessarily contradictory. They could be, mind you, but I don't think they necessarily are.</p><p></p><p>That is, say I make a pen & paper RPG that is better left to a computer: you need to keep track of a bunch of things all at once, it's amazingly fiddly, you need to roll up dozens of random events to see what happens, etc. I've made a very complicated game (what many might call "too complicated").</p><p></p><p>Now, let's say I have a rule in my game: you can't do what's not presented as an option. If you run across an ogre (random event that you rolled), you have the option to Fight (Attack, Block) or Flee (attempt to dismiss combat). You can't try to negotiate, bribe, intimidate, recruit, swear fealty to, etc., to the ogre. It's not an option. People might call this "dumbed down" when the previous version of the game had those options.</p><p></p><p>Obviously, 4e isn't "dumbed down" like my example is, but some people that got the impression that it was missing options (Craft, Profession, Perform, etc.) might give that critique, while others critique it for being "too complicated" (powers, +½ level, etc.).</p><p></p><p>Again, though, people could just be making contradictory claims. It's not necessarily true that they were, but it certainly did happen (enough claims were made that it's bound to happen). </p><p></p><p>Again, this depends on your definition of role playing. If you mean something very focused (immersion, actor stance, etc.), and a meta-mechanic pulls you out of that to progress the story, you can make the claim of "too narrativist" and "discourages RP". It just depends on your definition of what "RP" is.</p><p></p><p>And, on top of that, people are upset that contradictory claims are made! Of course different groups will critique different things. I'm not a fan of complicated systems... until I get used to them. Then I usually much prefer them to simple systems. Other groups may not like complicated systems at all, even after giving it some time. We'd probably give different long-term reviews.</p><p></p><p>Just like people say "it's the best game" or "it's the worst game", people say "it's too complicated" and "it's dumbed down" and so on. Sometimes, though, "too complicated" and "dumbed down" aren't as contradictory as "best" and "worst"; it's just a matter of slogging through the dialogue and finding out what bugs people ("too complicated" = too many options, "dumbed down" = too restrained on my choices, etc.).</p><p></p><p>Of course, some people aren't very cooperative when it comes to having that dialogue. We'll just have to work around them. As always, play what you like <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JamesonCourage, post: 6015535, member: 6668292"] While people did have contradictory claims about 4e (and 3.X, etc.), I disagree with these terms being necessarily contradictory. They could be, mind you, but I don't think they necessarily are. That is, say I make a pen & paper RPG that is better left to a computer: you need to keep track of a bunch of things all at once, it's amazingly fiddly, you need to roll up dozens of random events to see what happens, etc. I've made a very complicated game (what many might call "too complicated"). Now, let's say I have a rule in my game: you can't do what's not presented as an option. If you run across an ogre (random event that you rolled), you have the option to Fight (Attack, Block) or Flee (attempt to dismiss combat). You can't try to negotiate, bribe, intimidate, recruit, swear fealty to, etc., to the ogre. It's not an option. People might call this "dumbed down" when the previous version of the game had those options. Obviously, 4e isn't "dumbed down" like my example is, but some people that got the impression that it was missing options (Craft, Profession, Perform, etc.) might give that critique, while others critique it for being "too complicated" (powers, +½ level, etc.). Again, though, people could just be making contradictory claims. It's not necessarily true that they were, but it certainly did happen (enough claims were made that it's bound to happen). Again, this depends on your definition of role playing. If you mean something very focused (immersion, actor stance, etc.), and a meta-mechanic pulls you out of that to progress the story, you can make the claim of "too narrativist" and "discourages RP". It just depends on your definition of what "RP" is. And, on top of that, people are upset that contradictory claims are made! Of course different groups will critique different things. I'm not a fan of complicated systems... until I get used to them. Then I usually much prefer them to simple systems. Other groups may not like complicated systems at all, even after giving it some time. We'd probably give different long-term reviews. Just like people say "it's the best game" or "it's the worst game", people say "it's too complicated" and "it's dumbed down" and so on. Sometimes, though, "too complicated" and "dumbed down" aren't as contradictory as "best" and "worst"; it's just a matter of slogging through the dialogue and finding out what bugs people ("too complicated" = too many options, "dumbed down" = too restrained on my choices, etc.). Of course, some people aren't very cooperative when it comes to having that dialogue. We'll just have to work around them. As always, play what you like :) [/QUOTE]
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