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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6016508" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>And the wealth by level takes this into account. If it didn't then you'd start off by loading every PC of high level down with junk. I don't have the 3.X wealth by level rules to hand, but Pathfinder <em>explicitely assumes "<a href="http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gamemastering.html" target="_blank">that some of the less useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can be purchased.</a>"</em> Which means that you are simply double-counting here. (The 3.X assumptions aren't part of the SRD so I can't link them). Plenty of wealth is gold, and vendor trash being sold for half price is already part of the assumption of wealth by level. I don't need to halve it <em>again</em> - it's already been halved as part of the Wealth By Level<em>.</em></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm squarely in the envelope. For a wizard to raise a stat other than Int, or perhaps Con is a weird choice - probably more weird than the Barbarian choosing to raise his Int. The game doesn't give you many choices to raise Int because it expects you to take all of them. Which is one good way to center the envelope. You, for whatever reason, expect me to deliberately take a weird strategy that drops out of the <em>back</em> of the envelope.</p><p></p><p>As for items, what do you expect me to take? From what I can tell, the only items that make you a better wizard in the SRD are Int Boosters, the Blessed Book, the Ring of Wizardry, Pearls of Power, and Scrolls. Possibly wands. Oh, and the Metamagic Rods that should be banned.</p><p></p><p>And of those the Blessed Book is probably not worth buying at this level. It will be later. And you can afford it if you need to - you have the feat to make it - or you can just buy it off the shelf. The Ring of Wizardry 1 costs more than the +4 Headband of Intellect - and you can't craft it. So that means the items that make you a better wizard are the Headband of Intellect (which you can craft) and the Pearls of Power (which you can't). And scrolls. Mustn't forget the lovely cheap scrolls.</p><p></p><p>So it's boiling down to "Should I craft literally the only item I can craft that makes me a better wizard and isn't limited use"?</p><p></p><p>If there were other options out there you might have a point with your "moderating". But there aren't ones that come close. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The game <em>expects </em>it. Literally the only thing the game <em>might</em> not expect is the +4 headband of intellect. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What focus? I've spent fewer feats driving up my save DCs than the Barbarian's spent on getting better at hitting people. I've spent the same stat points doing what I do best that the Barbarian has. I've spent less money than the Barbarian has. And I've got a lot more versatility out of it. What do you expect me to get? Not to raise the single stat I've been using most and on which everything I do depends?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No. The moderating influence has been that I am following the game's expectations. I'm putting points into Int <em>when it expects me to</em> and not munchkining to get more. The game expects wizards to realise that the best thing they can do under any circumstance is to raise their Int so gives limited opportunities for this. And I'm taking them not making them. You seem to think, for whatever reason, that when the game gives me an offer of something good I must turn it down occasionally. Next you'll be telling fighters "You shouldn't be taking weapon specialisation <em>and</em> a magic weapon of the same type. You aren't moderating. You're only following the feat and advancement path laid out by the game, not doing something else."</p><p></p><p>The wizard I've laid out is a whole lot more moderate than the Greater Weapon Spec fighter at Level 8 - and the Cleaving Barbarian. Are you really going to tell them to moderate? Or does this have <em>absolutely nothing</em> to do with moderation in character generation, and instead have everything to do with the fact that the Wizard is very overpowered?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6016508, member: 87792"] And the wealth by level takes this into account. If it didn't then you'd start off by loading every PC of high level down with junk. I don't have the 3.X wealth by level rules to hand, but Pathfinder [I]explicitely assumes "[URL="http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gamemastering.html"]that some of the less useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can be purchased.[/URL]"[/I] Which means that you are simply double-counting here. (The 3.X assumptions aren't part of the SRD so I can't link them). Plenty of wealth is gold, and vendor trash being sold for half price is already part of the assumption of wealth by level. I don't need to halve it [I]again[/I] - it's already been halved as part of the Wealth By Level[I].[/I] I'm squarely in the envelope. For a wizard to raise a stat other than Int, or perhaps Con is a weird choice - probably more weird than the Barbarian choosing to raise his Int. The game doesn't give you many choices to raise Int because it expects you to take all of them. Which is one good way to center the envelope. You, for whatever reason, expect me to deliberately take a weird strategy that drops out of the [I]back[/I] of the envelope. As for items, what do you expect me to take? From what I can tell, the only items that make you a better wizard in the SRD are Int Boosters, the Blessed Book, the Ring of Wizardry, Pearls of Power, and Scrolls. Possibly wands. Oh, and the Metamagic Rods that should be banned. And of those the Blessed Book is probably not worth buying at this level. It will be later. And you can afford it if you need to - you have the feat to make it - or you can just buy it off the shelf. The Ring of Wizardry 1 costs more than the +4 Headband of Intellect - and you can't craft it. So that means the items that make you a better wizard are the Headband of Intellect (which you can craft) and the Pearls of Power (which you can't). And scrolls. Mustn't forget the lovely cheap scrolls. So it's boiling down to "Should I craft literally the only item I can craft that makes me a better wizard and isn't limited use"? If there were other options out there you might have a point with your "moderating". But there aren't ones that come close. The game [I]expects [/I]it. Literally the only thing the game [I]might[/I] not expect is the +4 headband of intellect. What focus? I've spent fewer feats driving up my save DCs than the Barbarian's spent on getting better at hitting people. I've spent the same stat points doing what I do best that the Barbarian has. I've spent less money than the Barbarian has. And I've got a lot more versatility out of it. What do you expect me to get? Not to raise the single stat I've been using most and on which everything I do depends? No. The moderating influence has been that I am following the game's expectations. I'm putting points into Int [I]when it expects me to[/I] and not munchkining to get more. The game expects wizards to realise that the best thing they can do under any circumstance is to raise their Int so gives limited opportunities for this. And I'm taking them not making them. You seem to think, for whatever reason, that when the game gives me an offer of something good I must turn it down occasionally. Next you'll be telling fighters "You shouldn't be taking weapon specialisation [I]and[/I] a magic weapon of the same type. You aren't moderating. You're only following the feat and advancement path laid out by the game, not doing something else." The wizard I've laid out is a whole lot more moderate than the Greater Weapon Spec fighter at Level 8 - and the Cleaving Barbarian. Are you really going to tell them to moderate? Or does this have [I]absolutely nothing[/I] to do with moderation in character generation, and instead have everything to do with the fact that the Wizard is very overpowered? [/QUOTE]
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