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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6017752" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>The problem I have with 3.X is quite simple. There is literally one class in the PHB that isn't either a negative game experience for either me or a lot of the other people at the table. That class is the Bard.</p><p> </p><p>My default play style is one of two things. Either "Batman Wizard" relying on preparation or a well rounded rogue who improvises out of trouble (whatever the official character class is).</p><p> </p><p>If I play Batman Wizard, the game twists hard. I'm damn good at this type of play and I've a head for rules and synergy.</p><p> </p><p>So let's try the other option. The rogue (whatever class). In 3.X, let's assume I want to play a burglar. Simple concept. As a rogue you get 8+Int modifier skill points. Sounds like a lot.</p><p></p><p>But. How many skills do I need?</p><p> </p><p>Core 3.5 has 33 skills and 3 further skill families (Craft, Profession, Perform).</p><p> </p><p>For a burglar I need to be good at hiding and good at noticing guards. That's Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen. Four skills. I need to be a second story man. Which means I need Climb, Jump, Tumble (to fall), and Balance. We're up to eight skills. I need to be able to find the valuables and eyeball how much they are worth (Search, Appraise). I need to be able to get through locks and deal with traps intended to keep me out. That's Open Lock and Disable Device. We're up to 12 skills for my character concept before I've even thought of a profession skill, haggling with the fence if I need to, picking pockets if I started out that way, Use Rope, or others. I'm feeling hamstrung.</p><p> </p><p>In 1e I have most of the burglar skills that exist as thief skills. I have Scale Sheer Surface, Disable Device, Open Lock, Hide In Shadows, Move Silently. And I'm not explicitely lacking the others. In 4e to cover the entire range of the 12 skills (excluding Appraise) I need: Stealth, Thievery, Perception, Acrobatics, Athletics. Five skills. I can do that with a fourth level <em>fighter</em> if I need to. And with utility powers I get to specialise above and beyond the norm if I feel the need.</p><p> </p><p>Now. Let's take another example just to prove it wasn't a fluke. I want to play someone based on Templeton Peck (better known simply as Face). I'm going to need the social package (Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy - I don't <em>think</em> I need intimidate). I'm going to need to be able sneak around (Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen). I need to be able to open safes and defeat security systems. (Pick Lock, Disable Device). I deifinitely need Appraise. Disguise is, of course, a no-brainer. Also Forgery and Perform (Acting). 14 skills. Ouch. For 4e to cover that range it's Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Perception, Stealth, Thievery. Or within the ordinary range of a rogue and more than doable for a bard. (I probably also need Arcana given the way the world's different from the A Team universe).</p><p> </p><p>Yes, I believe radical surgery to the 3.X system was necessary. The skill system needed to go. The Vancian casters needed crippling one way or the other. One of my default playstyles was hyper-rewarded, the other was hamstrung. Combat - I don't get anything out of 3.X combat as a non-caster and not really as a caster. (Other than Bo9S).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6017752, member: 87792"] The problem I have with 3.X is quite simple. There is literally one class in the PHB that isn't either a negative game experience for either me or a lot of the other people at the table. That class is the Bard. My default play style is one of two things. Either "Batman Wizard" relying on preparation or a well rounded rogue who improvises out of trouble (whatever the official character class is). If I play Batman Wizard, the game twists hard. I'm damn good at this type of play and I've a head for rules and synergy. So let's try the other option. The rogue (whatever class). In 3.X, let's assume I want to play a burglar. Simple concept. As a rogue you get 8+Int modifier skill points. Sounds like a lot. But. How many skills do I need? Core 3.5 has 33 skills and 3 further skill families (Craft, Profession, Perform). For a burglar I need to be good at hiding and good at noticing guards. That's Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen. Four skills. I need to be a second story man. Which means I need Climb, Jump, Tumble (to fall), and Balance. We're up to eight skills. I need to be able to find the valuables and eyeball how much they are worth (Search, Appraise). I need to be able to get through locks and deal with traps intended to keep me out. That's Open Lock and Disable Device. We're up to 12 skills for my character concept before I've even thought of a profession skill, haggling with the fence if I need to, picking pockets if I started out that way, Use Rope, or others. I'm feeling hamstrung. In 1e I have most of the burglar skills that exist as thief skills. I have Scale Sheer Surface, Disable Device, Open Lock, Hide In Shadows, Move Silently. And I'm not explicitely lacking the others. In 4e to cover the entire range of the 12 skills (excluding Appraise) I need: Stealth, Thievery, Perception, Acrobatics, Athletics. Five skills. I can do that with a fourth level [I]fighter[/I] if I need to. And with utility powers I get to specialise above and beyond the norm if I feel the need. Now. Let's take another example just to prove it wasn't a fluke. I want to play someone based on Templeton Peck (better known simply as Face). I'm going to need the social package (Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy - I don't [I]think[/I] I need intimidate). I'm going to need to be able sneak around (Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen). I need to be able to open safes and defeat security systems. (Pick Lock, Disable Device). I deifinitely need Appraise. Disguise is, of course, a no-brainer. Also Forgery and Perform (Acting). 14 skills. Ouch. For 4e to cover that range it's Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Perception, Stealth, Thievery. Or within the ordinary range of a rogue and more than doable for a bard. (I probably also need Arcana given the way the world's different from the A Team universe). Yes, I believe radical surgery to the 3.X system was necessary. The skill system needed to go. The Vancian casters needed crippling one way or the other. One of my default playstyles was hyper-rewarded, the other was hamstrung. Combat - I don't get anything out of 3.X combat as a non-caster and not really as a caster. (Other than Bo9S). [/QUOTE]
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