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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Crazy Jerome" data-source="post: 6018913" data-attributes="member: 54877"><p>Right. Which would break the reward cycle in BW, which is the best thing about it. People see the Beliefs and read "Fate Aspects" as if the Beliefs were central, but it's the "Fight for what you Believe" that is central, because that is the reward cycle in BW. <strong>Everything</strong> in BW is in there either as pursuit of that reward cycle or color (or often, both).</p><p> </p><p>The reward cycle is player driven. The emergent story is character driven. The player picks beliefs that will be challenged or pushed. The character is just some guy that has those beliefs. The player then must push the action to get situations that are risky, in order to advance. The character doesn't want to confront the orcs, but the player does--preferably in some way that pushes skills that the player wants to advance as his conception. Some of these confrontations will include failure--which the character most emphatically does not want but that gives the player a nifty test or three--and maybe even some Artha. This Artha is then spent to eventually succeed and gain another test. Meanwhile, the goals are met or changed, and thus Beliefs evolve. </p><p> </p><p>Now, that's not exactly Forge Narrativism as I understand it. (And I don't think the BW folks think it is, either.) It is a form of narrative play that has some parts outside the gamist/simulation spheres. A Right to Dream character, pushed faithfully in that way, would practically never grow in BW--and probably wouldn't be very interesting.</p><p> </p><p>Meanwhile, a properly pushed and engaged BW group is being constantly put in the position of seeking out ways to get their characters in trouble, but not necessarily in ways that they can directly solve. Basically, since the DM can run BW full out (and Say Yes on the trivial stuff), the players are expected to bring enough rope to hang their characters. The DM will then try to hang them. The players will try to escape unhung. This works only because the DM can try to hang them.</p><p> </p><p>I don't know how Fate aspects work, but I get the impression from what other people have said about it that it's reward cycle is not quite so dedicated and tight--almost more of a Karma effect than a true reward cycle. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.</p><p> </p><p>BW groups don't so much "address premise" as "saunter by premise in a nonchalant manner, suddenly make rude gestures, and then run away." Naturally, this leads to something a bit like "story now," but likewise twisted into "story as soon as premise catches up with you in a dark alley." <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Crazy Jerome, post: 6018913, member: 54877"] Right. Which would break the reward cycle in BW, which is the best thing about it. People see the Beliefs and read "Fate Aspects" as if the Beliefs were central, but it's the "Fight for what you Believe" that is central, because that is the reward cycle in BW. [B]Everything[/B] in BW is in there either as pursuit of that reward cycle or color (or often, both). The reward cycle is player driven. The emergent story is character driven. The player picks beliefs that will be challenged or pushed. The character is just some guy that has those beliefs. The player then must push the action to get situations that are risky, in order to advance. The character doesn't want to confront the orcs, but the player does--preferably in some way that pushes skills that the player wants to advance as his conception. Some of these confrontations will include failure--which the character most emphatically does not want but that gives the player a nifty test or three--and maybe even some Artha. This Artha is then spent to eventually succeed and gain another test. Meanwhile, the goals are met or changed, and thus Beliefs evolve. Now, that's not exactly Forge Narrativism as I understand it. (And I don't think the BW folks think it is, either.) It is a form of narrative play that has some parts outside the gamist/simulation spheres. A Right to Dream character, pushed faithfully in that way, would practically never grow in BW--and probably wouldn't be very interesting. Meanwhile, a properly pushed and engaged BW group is being constantly put in the position of seeking out ways to get their characters in trouble, but not necessarily in ways that they can directly solve. Basically, since the DM can run BW full out (and Say Yes on the trivial stuff), the players are expected to bring enough rope to hang their characters. The DM will then try to hang them. The players will try to escape unhung. This works only because the DM can try to hang them. I don't know how Fate aspects work, but I get the impression from what other people have said about it that it's reward cycle is not quite so dedicated and tight--almost more of a Karma effect than a true reward cycle. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. BW groups don't so much "address premise" as "saunter by premise in a nonchalant manner, suddenly make rude gestures, and then run away." Naturally, this leads to something a bit like "story now," but likewise twisted into "story as soon as premise catches up with you in a dark alley." :D [/QUOTE]
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