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With the Holy Trinity out, let's take stock of 5E
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<blockquote data-quote="howandwhy99" data-source="post: 6467320" data-attributes="member: 3192"><p>There is a disclaimer at the beginning of one of the Big Model articles which claimed it was simply theory. But whatever that meant to the community in practice was altogether different. [MENTION=6779310]aramis erak[/MENTION]'s experience and so many of anyone's experience the last decade at places like RPG.net speaks otherwise. I like Post-Structuralism. I'm a huge proponent. But it's like a lot of things people really love (like even Love), when it's made a religion of, an absolute, the tolerance of its believers can go south really fast. No matter how insightful what they were saying was.</p><p></p><p>1. "Gamism" is more or less the act of treating something as a game. It's not a mode of play, it's the act of game play.</p><p></p><p>2. Games are not designed to tell stories. That's a wholey different manner of being. That's invention, not deciphering to achieve an objective. Games must be made beforehand so people can play them. Making stories simply requires the capacity to create.</p><p></p><p>The conversations on the Forge by the community, the level of intellect and learning made it one of the shining areas of intelligent thought on the internet. The determining of what RPGs were after the 90s needed to be done. That they threw him out for his behavior, but not the ideas is sort of like people who still hold to a religious past, but no longer consider themselves religious or true believers. This is all a good thing, but the "common knowledge" the hobby in mass holds to is still whitewashed history by a largely malicious act from one person. </p><p></p><p>The Thief class needs more work than any other to fix it. But that's far from the worst design of the class. It's a class that is built to be non-cooperative (Assassins are XP'd for anti-cooperative acts) in a game built for cooperative team strategies.</p><p></p><p>We can at least agree that the long history and hobby of D&D is a game where the DM's guides, the Monster Manual, and all adventure modules were understood for decades as never to be shown to the players. This is not a delusional practice from the 70's from a community of "people who didn't know what games were". It was to enable the playing of the game at all.</p><p></p><p>As I said before, GURPS wasn't even considered a role playing game by the faithful or even much of a game at the time. </p><p>(But I like a lot of stuff early GURPS had in it too)</p><p></p><p>My mistake. The quote you made should be "Players aren't restricted in what they can [-]do[/-] <span style="color: #FF0000">attempt</span>. </p><p></p><p>My digging into history, especially the huge wealth of wargame thinking about game design from the 60's and 70's, supports more of what I'm suggesting. I'm not afraid to be wrong, but when everything in the 4000 games before storygames looks like a hammer and then people denigrate it and burn the hobby claiming "these are horrible bicycle seats! What are we here to do but ride bicycles?"</p><p></p><p>2ed. advertising, especially the DMG ed., should never have confused D&D as being about narrative following not game play. No matter how successful the Dragonlace novels were when they decided to make the switch. (Post-Gygax, Jan 1 1986 or sometime soon thereafter to remove his work from the game)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="howandwhy99, post: 6467320, member: 3192"] There is a disclaimer at the beginning of one of the Big Model articles which claimed it was simply theory. But whatever that meant to the community in practice was altogether different. [MENTION=6779310]aramis erak[/MENTION]'s experience and so many of anyone's experience the last decade at places like RPG.net speaks otherwise. I like Post-Structuralism. I'm a huge proponent. But it's like a lot of things people really love (like even Love), when it's made a religion of, an absolute, the tolerance of its believers can go south really fast. No matter how insightful what they were saying was. 1. "Gamism" is more or less the act of treating something as a game. It's not a mode of play, it's the act of game play. 2. Games are not designed to tell stories. That's a wholey different manner of being. That's invention, not deciphering to achieve an objective. Games must be made beforehand so people can play them. Making stories simply requires the capacity to create. The conversations on the Forge by the community, the level of intellect and learning made it one of the shining areas of intelligent thought on the internet. The determining of what RPGs were after the 90s needed to be done. That they threw him out for his behavior, but not the ideas is sort of like people who still hold to a religious past, but no longer consider themselves religious or true believers. This is all a good thing, but the "common knowledge" the hobby in mass holds to is still whitewashed history by a largely malicious act from one person. The Thief class needs more work than any other to fix it. But that's far from the worst design of the class. It's a class that is built to be non-cooperative (Assassins are XP'd for anti-cooperative acts) in a game built for cooperative team strategies. We can at least agree that the long history and hobby of D&D is a game where the DM's guides, the Monster Manual, and all adventure modules were understood for decades as never to be shown to the players. This is not a delusional practice from the 70's from a community of "people who didn't know what games were". It was to enable the playing of the game at all. As I said before, GURPS wasn't even considered a role playing game by the faithful or even much of a game at the time. (But I like a lot of stuff early GURPS had in it too) My mistake. The quote you made should be "Players aren't restricted in what they can [-]do[/-] [COLOR="#FF0000"]attempt[/COLOR]. My digging into history, especially the huge wealth of wargame thinking about game design from the 60's and 70's, supports more of what I'm suggesting. I'm not afraid to be wrong, but when everything in the 4000 games before storygames looks like a hammer and then people denigrate it and burn the hobby claiming "these are horrible bicycle seats! What are we here to do but ride bicycles?" 2ed. advertising, especially the DMG ed., should never have confused D&D as being about narrative following not game play. No matter how successful the Dragonlace novels were when they decided to make the switch. (Post-Gygax, Jan 1 1986 or sometime soon thereafter to remove his work from the game) [/QUOTE]
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