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With the Holy Trinity out, let's take stock of 5E
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6467520" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Quote?</p><p></p><p>Ron Edwards on <a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/21/" target="_blank">gamism</a> in 2003:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">References to Gamism tend to be dismissive, superficial, and often backhanded ("except for the Gamists," "my inner Gamist," etc). With respect to the members of the RFGA discussion group, I think they categorized Gamist play mainly in order to sweep it out of the realm of further dialogue, in order to concentrate on issues that I would now primarily identify within Simulationist play. I also think that most, although not all, subsequent discussion has been similar. Yet that exceptional bit, here and there over several forums, indicates far less consensus out there than might have been expected or assumed. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">I'm going for a real look at the category for its own sake. In some ways I'm kind of a case study of the problem, but I hope also part of the solution as well; my own views have changed immensely since I referred to Gamist players as "space aliens" years ago on the Gaming Outpost. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Competition is best understood as a productive add-on to Gamist play. Such play is fundamentally cooperative, but may include competition. That's not a contradiction: I'm using exactly the same logic as might be found at the poker and basketball games. You can't compete, socially, without an agreed-upon venue. If the cooperation's details are acceptable to everyone, then the competition within it can be quite fierce. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Gamist-inclined players tend to be unashamed regarding their preferences. Their role-playing is easily understood, diverse in application, unpretentious, and often perfectly happy with its role relative to the person's social life at large. The Gamists have a lot to teach the rest of the hobby about self-esteem. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Some folks seem to think that Gamist play lacks variety, to which I say, "nonsense." Scrabble is "always the same," and it's fun as hell; simple games do not mean simplistic, shallow, or easy. What matters is whether the strategy of the moment is fun. Well-designed, multiple-edged Step On Up activities with fully-developed competition are endlessly diverting and provide an excellent basis for friendship. Anyone who thinks that such things in role-playing necessarily cannot be fun and will necessarily destroy social interactions is badly mistaken</p><p></p><p>I don't think that is conssitent with your claim.</p><p></p><p>Ron Edwards on <a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/15/" target="_blank">simulationism</a> in the same year:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">Simulationist role-playing has a great deal of power and potential. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Here's a quick overview of existing diversity in Simulationist play. I'm focusing on fun, functional, coherent play - none of the following is a criticism or indictment. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">For play really to be Simulationist, it can't lose the daydream quality: the pleasure in imagination as such, without agenda. For game design to promote this goal, it must be openly valued and its virtues articulated, not assumed (as it often is) to be "good role-playing" by anyone's standards and hence left unstated. Design should be inspiring and elegant in its own right, promoting the desire to see this Setting or Character unfold, or to see this System do its stuff.</p><p></p><p>That isn't consistent with your claim either. As someone who played and GMed Rolemaster for nearly 20 years, and whose favourite one-shot games during that period were various BRP-derivatives (Runequest, Stormbringer etc) I think Edwards absolutey nails the essence of those systems (both their strengths and potential problems) in this essay.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6467520, member: 42582"] Quote? Ron Edwards on [url=http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/21/]gamism[/url] in 2003: [indent]References to Gamism tend to be dismissive, superficial, and often backhanded ("except for the Gamists," "my inner Gamist," etc). With respect to the members of the RFGA discussion group, I think they categorized Gamist play mainly in order to sweep it out of the realm of further dialogue, in order to concentrate on issues that I would now primarily identify within Simulationist play. I also think that most, although not all, subsequent discussion has been similar. Yet that exceptional bit, here and there over several forums, indicates far less consensus out there than might have been expected or assumed. I'm going for a real look at the category for its own sake. In some ways I'm kind of a case study of the problem, but I hope also part of the solution as well; my own views have changed immensely since I referred to Gamist players as "space aliens" years ago on the Gaming Outpost. . . . Competition is best understood as a productive add-on to Gamist play. Such play is fundamentally cooperative, but may include competition. That's not a contradiction: I'm using exactly the same logic as might be found at the poker and basketball games. You can't compete, socially, without an agreed-upon venue. If the cooperation's details are acceptable to everyone, then the competition within it can be quite fierce. . . . Gamist-inclined players tend to be unashamed regarding their preferences. Their role-playing is easily understood, diverse in application, unpretentious, and often perfectly happy with its role relative to the person's social life at large. The Gamists have a lot to teach the rest of the hobby about self-esteem. Some folks seem to think that Gamist play lacks variety, to which I say, "nonsense." Scrabble is "always the same," and it's fun as hell; simple games do not mean simplistic, shallow, or easy. What matters is whether the strategy of the moment is fun. Well-designed, multiple-edged Step On Up activities with fully-developed competition are endlessly diverting and provide an excellent basis for friendship. Anyone who thinks that such things in role-playing necessarily cannot be fun and will necessarily destroy social interactions is badly mistaken[/indent] I don't think that is conssitent with your claim. Ron Edwards on [url=http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/15/]simulationism[/url] in the same year: [indent]Simulationist role-playing has a great deal of power and potential. . . . Here's a quick overview of existing diversity in Simulationist play. I'm focusing on fun, functional, coherent play - none of the following is a criticism or indictment. . . . For play really to be Simulationist, it can't lose the daydream quality: the pleasure in imagination as such, without agenda. For game design to promote this goal, it must be openly valued and its virtues articulated, not assumed (as it often is) to be "good role-playing" by anyone's standards and hence left unstated. Design should be inspiring and elegant in its own right, promoting the desire to see this Setting or Character unfold, or to see this System do its stuff.[/indent] That isn't consistent with your claim either. As someone who played and GMed Rolemaster for nearly 20 years, and whose favourite one-shot games during that period were various BRP-derivatives (Runequest, Stormbringer etc) I think Edwards absolutey nails the essence of those systems (both their strengths and potential problems) in this essay. [/QUOTE]
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