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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9126762" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>I've played a lot of Wizards and a lot of Sorcerers. Wizards in general bring more to the table in the class and a lot more in subclasses IMO. Not true for all subclasses, but most of them - Enchantment, Bladesinger, Abjuration, War Magic, Diviner all get great 2nd level and for the most part very good 6th level abilities. I would put these against any Sorcerer subclass abilities. </p><p></p><p>A single twinned XYZ is often better as an action, but sorcery points are limited and by the time that comes online Wizards have their 2nd level ability, which is usually pretty significant - for example, the ability to twin a spell a few times a day pales in comparison to the ability to incapacitate an enemy with no resource cost and no follow on save after the first, or the ability to auto land a spell. Further the Wizard gets more spells per day because of Arcane recovery and if you are using metamagic more than a couple times a day, then you are burning slots with felxible casting. Then add to this the best sorcerer subclass abilities also use sorcery points. </p><p></p><p>TBH, if you like metamagic, a high-intelligence variant human Wizard with metamagic adept and Arcane recovery and a 2 level Sorcerer dip to get flexible casting can have just about as many SPs as a sorcerer of the same level. You are giving up a spell level which matters at certain levels, but you are getting more cantrips a better spell selection and generally better subclass abilities. You can put spells like Absorb Elements and Shield on your Sorc list and still have great offensive options as a Wizard.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If you are talking about single class characters, I think Wizards are more fun to play than any of the other casters. </p><p></p><p>If you are talking multiclasses it is wide open and I certainly have not played them all, nor even a large enough sample to say what is and isn't bad. But here is my experience:</p><p></p><p><strong>Mixes of only casters</strong></p><p>I have had a lot of fun with a Shadow Sorc-Undead Chainlock and a Shadow Sorc-Undying Chainlock, Bladesinger with Undead Warlock dip or Bladesinger with Death Cleric dip, multiclass Enchantment Wizard/Order Cleric and Tempest Cleric with a Fathomless dip.</p><p></p><p>I have not had a lot of fun to date with any of the Bard-Sorcerer multiclasses or Bard-Warlock Multiclasses I have tried. </p><p></p><p><strong>Casters and half-casters or martials</strong></p><p>There are a bunch of fun half-caster/caster or caster/martial multiclasses that are fun too. Bladesinger-Monk, Bladesinger-Arcane Trickster, Fey Wanderer Ranger-Whispers Bard have all been fun for me.</p><p></p><p>One I did not find appealing though is anything with a Paladin. The only Paladin I ever really enjoyed playing was a single class Kender Oath of conquest.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In games I play Comprehend Languages and Detect Magic are used as rituals all the time. If there is not a Wizard in the party it is usually a Cleric or Bard wasting a spell preparation/spell known on those. If other classes had Find Familiar they would get it, as it is the most powerful 1st level ritual (and arguably the most powerful 1st level spell) in the game. Identify and Unseen servant are also common rituals. </p><p></p><p>Unseen Servant, cast as a ritual and accompanying your party, is extremely powerful in combat action economy at 1st and 2nd level. I don't see it often, but often enough to mention and this is at a very low level. Your 1st level Wizard can be walking into combat with essentially 3 actions (1 from a familiar, 1 his own and an interact with an object he uses a bonus for from his unseen servant). This is less powerful at higher levels, but at level 1 this is awesome as his action is doing damage near what a fighter is doing and then he is getting to do two more things every turn (at least until his familiar dies).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 9126762, member: 7030563"] I've played a lot of Wizards and a lot of Sorcerers. Wizards in general bring more to the table in the class and a lot more in subclasses IMO. Not true for all subclasses, but most of them - Enchantment, Bladesinger, Abjuration, War Magic, Diviner all get great 2nd level and for the most part very good 6th level abilities. I would put these against any Sorcerer subclass abilities. A single twinned XYZ is often better as an action, but sorcery points are limited and by the time that comes online Wizards have their 2nd level ability, which is usually pretty significant - for example, the ability to twin a spell a few times a day pales in comparison to the ability to incapacitate an enemy with no resource cost and no follow on save after the first, or the ability to auto land a spell. Further the Wizard gets more spells per day because of Arcane recovery and if you are using metamagic more than a couple times a day, then you are burning slots with felxible casting. Then add to this the best sorcerer subclass abilities also use sorcery points. TBH, if you like metamagic, a high-intelligence variant human Wizard with metamagic adept and Arcane recovery and a 2 level Sorcerer dip to get flexible casting can have just about as many SPs as a sorcerer of the same level. You are giving up a spell level which matters at certain levels, but you are getting more cantrips a better spell selection and generally better subclass abilities. You can put spells like Absorb Elements and Shield on your Sorc list and still have great offensive options as a Wizard. If you are talking about single class characters, I think Wizards are more fun to play than any of the other casters. If you are talking multiclasses it is wide open and I certainly have not played them all, nor even a large enough sample to say what is and isn't bad. But here is my experience: [B]Mixes of only casters[/B] I have had a lot of fun with a Shadow Sorc-Undead Chainlock and a Shadow Sorc-Undying Chainlock, Bladesinger with Undead Warlock dip or Bladesinger with Death Cleric dip, multiclass Enchantment Wizard/Order Cleric and Tempest Cleric with a Fathomless dip. I have not had a lot of fun to date with any of the Bard-Sorcerer multiclasses or Bard-Warlock Multiclasses I have tried. [B]Casters and half-casters or martials[/B] There are a bunch of fun half-caster/caster or caster/martial multiclasses that are fun too. Bladesinger-Monk, Bladesinger-Arcane Trickster, Fey Wanderer Ranger-Whispers Bard have all been fun for me. One I did not find appealing though is anything with a Paladin. The only Paladin I ever really enjoyed playing was a single class Kender Oath of conquest. In games I play Comprehend Languages and Detect Magic are used as rituals all the time. If there is not a Wizard in the party it is usually a Cleric or Bard wasting a spell preparation/spell known on those. If other classes had Find Familiar they would get it, as it is the most powerful 1st level ritual (and arguably the most powerful 1st level spell) in the game. Identify and Unseen servant are also common rituals. Unseen Servant, cast as a ritual and accompanying your party, is extremely powerful in combat action economy at 1st and 2nd level. I don't see it often, but often enough to mention and this is at a very low level. Your 1st level Wizard can be walking into combat with essentially 3 actions (1 from a familiar, 1 his own and an interact with an object he uses a bonus for from his unseen servant). This is less powerful at higher levels, but at level 1 this is awesome as his action is doing damage near what a fighter is doing and then he is getting to do two more things every turn (at least until his familiar dies). [/QUOTE]
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