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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9134571" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>Here is the definition of scholar:</p><p></p><p><u> S</u><em><u>pecialist in a particular branch of study,</u> especially the humanities</em></p><p></p><p>note underlined, that is what I was talking about when I said magic for a wizard was an "applied" field of study.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But "likely" being a Sage is NOT the same as "definitely" being a sage.</p><p></p><p>I can play a Wizard who is a high-strength, low (below 10) intelligence Dwarf sailor and be COMPLETELY within the rules. And on point buy or standard array, such a character can even be viable and with the right choices frankly be above average in all 3 pillars of the game (compared to average characters from other classes).</p><p></p><p>I can't play a Warlock without a Patron or a Paladin above level 3 without an oath at all. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, but "more likely" not the same as "absolutely required".</p><p></p><p>Not all Wizards would lecture in a library. Some of them would flat be kicked out and not allowed to even attend the lecture.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Agreed. This does not require an education though. It requires understanding and knowledge of how magic works.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok, two things here. First this is one place where the rules do not agree with the fiction. Karsus for example destroyed the greatest civilization in the history of Ferun and Szass Tam later tried to do the same (and failed).</p><p></p><p>Moreover the D&D fantasy worlds are generally primative, ranging from the dark ages to the renaissance depending on how you evaluate them, but it certainly is niether advanced nor modern. So the key "advances in civilization" they talk about here, in fact did not happen in the official game settings and the fantasy world advances a lot slower than the actual real world did historically. </p><p></p><p>Second, even if you accept this as true when "fantasy history" shows it as false, it uses the word "our" which is a collective. Wizards <u>in general</u> may have brought about these theoretical unnamed advances, but that does not mean Wizards <u>in specific</u> have.</p><p></p><p>To compare a similar statement: We can say IRL <em>"Capitalist efforts to industrialize and modernize has brought about great wealth and advancement in civilization over the last 200 years"</em> This is undeniably 100% true, yet there are still many, many poor people in the world, to include some capitalists.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Study, instruction and experimentation are fundamentally different than education. Experimentation is a bit of an outlier to start with because the Scientific method is generally associated with the modern era, but study and instruction are not the same as education. Again I point to apprenticeships and to trades.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I do not see it as explcit as you do. I think you are inferring a lot here, a lot more than is actually stated as rules. If Wizards had to actually be educated, I think the rules would actually say that and not beat around the bush on it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 9134571, member: 7030563"] Here is the definition of scholar: [U] S[/U][I][U]pecialist in a particular branch of study,[/U] especially the humanities[/I] note underlined, that is what I was talking about when I said magic for a wizard was an "applied" field of study. But "likely" being a Sage is NOT the same as "definitely" being a sage. I can play a Wizard who is a high-strength, low (below 10) intelligence Dwarf sailor and be COMPLETELY within the rules. And on point buy or standard array, such a character can even be viable and with the right choices frankly be above average in all 3 pillars of the game (compared to average characters from other classes). I can't play a Warlock without a Patron or a Paladin above level 3 without an oath at all. Sure, but "more likely" not the same as "absolutely required". Not all Wizards would lecture in a library. Some of them would flat be kicked out and not allowed to even attend the lecture. Agreed. This does not require an education though. It requires understanding and knowledge of how magic works. Ok, two things here. First this is one place where the rules do not agree with the fiction. Karsus for example destroyed the greatest civilization in the history of Ferun and Szass Tam later tried to do the same (and failed). Moreover the D&D fantasy worlds are generally primative, ranging from the dark ages to the renaissance depending on how you evaluate them, but it certainly is niether advanced nor modern. So the key "advances in civilization" they talk about here, in fact did not happen in the official game settings and the fantasy world advances a lot slower than the actual real world did historically. Second, even if you accept this as true when "fantasy history" shows it as false, it uses the word "our" which is a collective. Wizards [U]in general[/U] may have brought about these theoretical unnamed advances, but that does not mean Wizards [U]in specific[/U] have. To compare a similar statement: We can say IRL [I]"Capitalist efforts to industrialize and modernize has brought about great wealth and advancement in civilization over the last 200 years"[/I] This is undeniably 100% true, yet there are still many, many poor people in the world, to include some capitalists. Study, instruction and experimentation are fundamentally different than education. Experimentation is a bit of an outlier to start with because the Scientific method is generally associated with the modern era, but study and instruction are not the same as education. Again I point to apprenticeships and to trades. I do not see it as explcit as you do. I think you are inferring a lot here, a lot more than is actually stated as rules. If Wizards had to actually be educated, I think the rules would actually say that and not beat around the bush on it. [/QUOTE]
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