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<blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 5969862" data-attributes="member: 95493"><p>Because the human fighter is a class and not a role.</p><p>Because the "role" of defender doesn't affect its stats the same way as "fighter" does.</p><p></p><p>I'm fine giving ogres class levels to customize them in that way. I'm fine giving other creatures class levels to define them in those ways. I dislike when monsters are automatically built towards a single "role" such as "sneaker" and then given HD/saves/etc. to match. Especially when the creature right beside it is built towards "brute" and have the HD/saves/etc. to match. If they are the same creature, with different levels and no class levels (or "monster levels" if you like), then I see no reason why the two ogres should be so vastly different.</p><p></p><p>In 3e terms, they have their monster HD and class HD. Let's say their monster HD are d10 and class HD vary (either d8 or d12). With the role defining HD method of 4e they will suddenly have their racial d10s turned into d8s just because the role prescribes it not because they have class levels - so instead of having 4d10 + 4d8 they would have 8d8, because they are a lurker.</p><p></p><p>I find this extra annoying because I think there are 3 categories of monsters. Ones who "need" class levels (or monster levels) to advance - with a base creature at the core - ogres, orcs, kobolds, goblins, etc. Monsters that are effectively races.</p><p></p><p>Then I think there are monsters who are fairly unique, or that have a common set of abilities that might make them a "lurker" and should not be subjected to having to fill out the various different types and roles based solely on how the PCs might face them. A giant spider should be a giant spider (probably a lurker), but not a lurker at lower levels and a "solo/elite/boss" at higher ones. A rust monster is going to have rust monster HD (and abilities) all the way unless it is somehow trained as a fighter.</p><p></p><p>Then I think there should be a category, mostly including outsiders and similar creatures, that are both a race and a unique monster, that should be BOTH. I can understand there being a lurker type of devil, and then a brute type, then a defender, and a healer or whatever types they want. I can understand this because generally I don't see those as being the same monster with different abilities, I see that as being a legion of different kinds of devils with different abilities.</p><p></p><p>Now on top of that if they give me some way to scale these creatures, either with these creatures at different levels or with a template that can be applied to SIMPLY AND EASILY level them up, then I'll be happy.</p><p>But if I see that every orc has to be a different kind of orc to balance out the encounter, I won't be happy.</p><p></p><p>That is my thought process everyone I hope that makes things clearer.</p><p></p><p>Roles =/= Classes (for a reason)</p><p>And they are only descriptive and not prescriptive when applied to the unique category. They BECOME prescriptive when applied to the racial category or having the same kind of elementals or outsiders with different abilities.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tovec, post: 5969862, member: 95493"] Because the human fighter is a class and not a role. Because the "role" of defender doesn't affect its stats the same way as "fighter" does. I'm fine giving ogres class levels to customize them in that way. I'm fine giving other creatures class levels to define them in those ways. I dislike when monsters are automatically built towards a single "role" such as "sneaker" and then given HD/saves/etc. to match. Especially when the creature right beside it is built towards "brute" and have the HD/saves/etc. to match. If they are the same creature, with different levels and no class levels (or "monster levels" if you like), then I see no reason why the two ogres should be so vastly different. In 3e terms, they have their monster HD and class HD. Let's say their monster HD are d10 and class HD vary (either d8 or d12). With the role defining HD method of 4e they will suddenly have their racial d10s turned into d8s just because the role prescribes it not because they have class levels - so instead of having 4d10 + 4d8 they would have 8d8, because they are a lurker. I find this extra annoying because I think there are 3 categories of monsters. Ones who "need" class levels (or monster levels) to advance - with a base creature at the core - ogres, orcs, kobolds, goblins, etc. Monsters that are effectively races. Then I think there are monsters who are fairly unique, or that have a common set of abilities that might make them a "lurker" and should not be subjected to having to fill out the various different types and roles based solely on how the PCs might face them. A giant spider should be a giant spider (probably a lurker), but not a lurker at lower levels and a "solo/elite/boss" at higher ones. A rust monster is going to have rust monster HD (and abilities) all the way unless it is somehow trained as a fighter. Then I think there should be a category, mostly including outsiders and similar creatures, that are both a race and a unique monster, that should be BOTH. I can understand there being a lurker type of devil, and then a brute type, then a defender, and a healer or whatever types they want. I can understand this because generally I don't see those as being the same monster with different abilities, I see that as being a legion of different kinds of devils with different abilities. Now on top of that if they give me some way to scale these creatures, either with these creatures at different levels or with a template that can be applied to SIMPLY AND EASILY level them up, then I'll be happy. But if I see that every orc has to be a different kind of orc to balance out the encounter, I won't be happy. That is my thought process everyone I hope that makes things clearer. Roles =/= Classes (for a reason) And they are only descriptive and not prescriptive when applied to the unique category. They BECOME prescriptive when applied to the racial category or having the same kind of elementals or outsiders with different abilities. [/QUOTE]
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