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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6770255" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Well, besides 'not liking them' because I don't think they add much of anything to the game that couldn't be better done with a human (which, in full frankness, would be how I'd anticipate a player would actually play one), the basic problem is that I can't see how they'd integrate with society. Most NPCs would take one look at a tiefling character, and decide they'd better burn this monster at the stake before it started eating their children or something worse. I feel that it would be utterly disruptive, and is really only appropriate for a 'Planescape' or science fiction style campaign were gonzo weirdness is the norm - not one on a generic vaguely medieval/early modern gritty fantasy world. And if you really wanted to play something with fiendish heritage, that option is open just in not quite as blatant and pitch-fork mob provoking of a form - and even then I'd probably caution you against the ideo until you'd proven to me you had the skill to pull off such a difficult concept without wrecking the fun of everyone else in the group. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Because gnomes don't exist in my world, so the package isn't there. And in particular, you'd be trampling all over established norms of my setting, including campaign secrets players aren't supposed to know but to perhaps discover during play. You could play a character with the personality of a Gnome and largely the abilities of a Gnome, but it would be a Sidhe of a somewhat peculiar nature (but that's ok, because don't they all?). </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Now you are no longer pitching just a character to me, but an entire pantheon, the associated cosmology, a mythic story, and indeed broadly the setting of the story. Why should 'the Gnomish pantheon' exist? I don't even know who the "Lost Sisters" are. To me this is like saying you want the next campaign to be "Star Wars" so you can play a Jedi, and if the campaign isn't Star Wars that you still want to be a Jedi because you are fascinated by midiclorians and have a great idea for a character that explores that concept. Ok, playing a Star Wars RPG is a reasonable desire, but then it bloody well ought to be obvious that the GM's desires and personal tastes do reasonably matter with regards to what he runs if you are dictating setting to him. If I didn't like Star Wars, you shouldn't expect me to run a Star Wars game just because you do. Why in this case would you be remotely taken aback by the DM's answer that he doesn't like such things? Or why would you even be taken aback to hear that though you were running a Star Wars game, the DM didn't like midiclorians and they weren't considered canon within the game?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But 'advantage' is an attribute of 5e D&D. And that's fine, we may be playing 5e D&D, but how you get to the idea of "highly resist to mental magic" is entirely system dependent and ultimately a bit arbitrary. There is generally, even within a system, more than one way to get there and certainly if we are playing GURPS the mechanic for 'highly resistant to mind altering effects' can be different. Now, you might not like GURPS mechanics generally, but that's not the same as saying that the concept isn't provided for in the system. If you come to me and say, "It fits my idea for the character that they be highly resistant to mind effecting magic.", then we can discuss how to mechanically implement that idea. I'm ok with the idea. But whether we implement it as +3 bonus on such saves, or as 'advantage', seems to me to be of rather less importance.</p><p></p><p>There is nothing wrong at all with marrying mechanics with your background. Indeed, I encourage such things in my own rules. But whether, "Raised by wolves" is implemented by taking the Feral trait, or by Unusual Background, or by being an Outsider or having the Profession Primitive or however a particular system implements the idea mechanically seems to me a thing of rather less importance than having some mechanical marker that distinguishes the character from ordinary ones on account of the unique background.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, that's great. But why does it have to be called a 'Gnome'? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You are putting the dividing line in a different place than I am. I do see a stark divide between, "I want to be good with a sword" and how that idea gets implemented mechanically by the system. There are all sorts of different system mechanics for implementing, "Great swordsman". When a player comes to me with the concept, "Great swordsman", I'm happy to oblige and point you toward system mechanics for implementing that idea. But I'm not necessarily because I'm happy to oblige the concept going to allow you to play a multiclass Factotum/Kensai/Duelist with Robilar's Gambit because you've got an infatuation for those particular mechanics. To me this goes beyond marrying mechanics to background or concept, and starts to fetishize particular rules.</p><p></p><p>Likewise, while I'm normally happy to let the player invent a certain amount of Lore for their backstory, up to and including working with the player to invent organizations or even deities, I'm not necessarily happy to import some other DMs existing canon into my world. If you start deciding that you just have to have FR, or Dark Sun, or Krynn or Greyhawk lore, races, deities, and organizations on Korrel, I'm probably going to tell you to go find a DM that enjoys playing on some other DM's world. </p><p></p><p>"No, I was planning to run a game in Sword Coast region of Sartha on the world of Korrel - there are no Kender, and Minotaurs don't ever walk around the street like they were ordinary persons. And, yes, you can worship a deity of justice and light, but no, you can't worship the Platinum Dragon." or "Actually, this game is going to take place on a giant gas world were stone is very rare and precious, and people sail about on flying ships, and no PC elves of any sort are allowed." Why should this take anyone aback? Why indeed would anyone assume Minotaurs, Kensai and even Tieflings were normal?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6770255, member: 4937"] Well, besides 'not liking them' because I don't think they add much of anything to the game that couldn't be better done with a human (which, in full frankness, would be how I'd anticipate a player would actually play one), the basic problem is that I can't see how they'd integrate with society. Most NPCs would take one look at a tiefling character, and decide they'd better burn this monster at the stake before it started eating their children or something worse. I feel that it would be utterly disruptive, and is really only appropriate for a 'Planescape' or science fiction style campaign were gonzo weirdness is the norm - not one on a generic vaguely medieval/early modern gritty fantasy world. And if you really wanted to play something with fiendish heritage, that option is open just in not quite as blatant and pitch-fork mob provoking of a form - and even then I'd probably caution you against the ideo until you'd proven to me you had the skill to pull off such a difficult concept without wrecking the fun of everyone else in the group. Because gnomes don't exist in my world, so the package isn't there. And in particular, you'd be trampling all over established norms of my setting, including campaign secrets players aren't supposed to know but to perhaps discover during play. You could play a character with the personality of a Gnome and largely the abilities of a Gnome, but it would be a Sidhe of a somewhat peculiar nature (but that's ok, because don't they all?). Now you are no longer pitching just a character to me, but an entire pantheon, the associated cosmology, a mythic story, and indeed broadly the setting of the story. Why should 'the Gnomish pantheon' exist? I don't even know who the "Lost Sisters" are. To me this is like saying you want the next campaign to be "Star Wars" so you can play a Jedi, and if the campaign isn't Star Wars that you still want to be a Jedi because you are fascinated by midiclorians and have a great idea for a character that explores that concept. Ok, playing a Star Wars RPG is a reasonable desire, but then it bloody well ought to be obvious that the GM's desires and personal tastes do reasonably matter with regards to what he runs if you are dictating setting to him. If I didn't like Star Wars, you shouldn't expect me to run a Star Wars game just because you do. Why in this case would you be remotely taken aback by the DM's answer that he doesn't like such things? Or why would you even be taken aback to hear that though you were running a Star Wars game, the DM didn't like midiclorians and they weren't considered canon within the game? But 'advantage' is an attribute of 5e D&D. And that's fine, we may be playing 5e D&D, but how you get to the idea of "highly resist to mental magic" is entirely system dependent and ultimately a bit arbitrary. There is generally, even within a system, more than one way to get there and certainly if we are playing GURPS the mechanic for 'highly resistant to mind altering effects' can be different. Now, you might not like GURPS mechanics generally, but that's not the same as saying that the concept isn't provided for in the system. If you come to me and say, "It fits my idea for the character that they be highly resistant to mind effecting magic.", then we can discuss how to mechanically implement that idea. I'm ok with the idea. But whether we implement it as +3 bonus on such saves, or as 'advantage', seems to me to be of rather less importance. There is nothing wrong at all with marrying mechanics with your background. Indeed, I encourage such things in my own rules. But whether, "Raised by wolves" is implemented by taking the Feral trait, or by Unusual Background, or by being an Outsider or having the Profession Primitive or however a particular system implements the idea mechanically seems to me a thing of rather less importance than having some mechanical marker that distinguishes the character from ordinary ones on account of the unique background. Again, that's great. But why does it have to be called a 'Gnome'? You are putting the dividing line in a different place than I am. I do see a stark divide between, "I want to be good with a sword" and how that idea gets implemented mechanically by the system. There are all sorts of different system mechanics for implementing, "Great swordsman". When a player comes to me with the concept, "Great swordsman", I'm happy to oblige and point you toward system mechanics for implementing that idea. But I'm not necessarily because I'm happy to oblige the concept going to allow you to play a multiclass Factotum/Kensai/Duelist with Robilar's Gambit because you've got an infatuation for those particular mechanics. To me this goes beyond marrying mechanics to background or concept, and starts to fetishize particular rules. Likewise, while I'm normally happy to let the player invent a certain amount of Lore for their backstory, up to and including working with the player to invent organizations or even deities, I'm not necessarily happy to import some other DMs existing canon into my world. If you start deciding that you just have to have FR, or Dark Sun, or Krynn or Greyhawk lore, races, deities, and organizations on Korrel, I'm probably going to tell you to go find a DM that enjoys playing on some other DM's world. "No, I was planning to run a game in Sword Coast region of Sartha on the world of Korrel - there are no Kender, and Minotaurs don't ever walk around the street like they were ordinary persons. And, yes, you can worship a deity of justice and light, but no, you can't worship the Platinum Dragon." or "Actually, this game is going to take place on a giant gas world were stone is very rare and precious, and people sail about on flying ships, and no PC elves of any sort are allowed." Why should this take anyone aback? Why indeed would anyone assume Minotaurs, Kensai and even Tieflings were normal? [/QUOTE]
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