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World of Design: The Lost Art of Making Things Up
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<blockquote data-quote="Argyle King" data-source="post: 8122265" data-attributes="member: 58416"><p>The rope was just something I picked. The game says it doesn't work, so it doesn't.</p><p></p><p>I agree that it was a special move. Though, it's another example of the game being built around different ideas of what "makes sense" than what would "make sense" in most other contexts. My comments aren't meant to pick on 4E; I could have picked a lot of editions of D&D (or Pathfinder) because they have similar issues. To someone familiar with the expectations of the game, it makes sense. Anecdotally, it's been my experience that it doesn't make sense to most new players (before they are taught by the game to think differently). As said in my previous post, I -personally- did not find it hard to imagine because I was (at the time) familiar with the game's expectations. While I enjoyed the game, I had to retrain my brain to understand what the game dictated made sense rather than how I would otherwise imagine things going.</p><p></p><p>The rope example becomes worse if you're playing 3rd Edition or Pathfinder beyond about level 5.</p><p></p><p>A better 4E example might be that it was -per the rules- better to stay in a crocodile's mouth than attempt to escape. The effect of being grappled had no impact on the in-mouth PC's ability to fight. Yes, you were taking damage every round, but it was (IIRC) far less damage than the initial bite attack which initiates the grapple. </p><p></p><p>Depending on my expectations, imagining that might be better or worse. Imagining a fantasy scenario? It's a bit strange. If I'm imagining something with more of a mythic or superhero edge, it makes a little more sense. If I'm imagining a comedic take on combat, I think it fits.</p><p></p><p>Another example would be the classic archetype of a knight on horseback. It's a common fantasy trope to charge the big monster in a blaze of glory; imagining that isn't difficult. It kinda works as a paladin (or maybe a ranger). Otherwise? A mount tends to be more of a liability. Even worse, depending on what game is being played, spending money on that liability means not having the items or abilities the game says should be had at a certain level. I see that as a conflict between what a player would imagine versus what a game says is appropriate.</p><p></p><p>Is fantasy reality? Again, no. But I would posit that having a shared baseline understanding is good for imagination and buying in to a narrative.</p><p></p><p>The reason I brought up wrestling is because it is a similar fictional portrayal of an exaggerated reality. It is a type of fantasy. However, despite being fantasy, it tries to start from a baseline of being "real" which the audience can understand, imagine, and buy into. As more steps have been taken to move away from that baseline, viewership and audience participation has objectively and measurably trended downward. The audience which remains tends to be those who view it through the lens of it being more "game" than those who suspend belief and buy into the narrative.</p><p></p><p>I believe something similar happens in tabletop gaming and the ability of players to view characters as more than game pieces. In the context of gaming, the trend is not (I think) less players, but I think there are commonalities in terms of how those who play now view gaming through a different lens.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Argyle King, post: 8122265, member: 58416"] The rope was just something I picked. The game says it doesn't work, so it doesn't. I agree that it was a special move. Though, it's another example of the game being built around different ideas of what "makes sense" than what would "make sense" in most other contexts. My comments aren't meant to pick on 4E; I could have picked a lot of editions of D&D (or Pathfinder) because they have similar issues. To someone familiar with the expectations of the game, it makes sense. Anecdotally, it's been my experience that it doesn't make sense to most new players (before they are taught by the game to think differently). As said in my previous post, I -personally- did not find it hard to imagine because I was (at the time) familiar with the game's expectations. While I enjoyed the game, I had to retrain my brain to understand what the game dictated made sense rather than how I would otherwise imagine things going. The rope example becomes worse if you're playing 3rd Edition or Pathfinder beyond about level 5. A better 4E example might be that it was -per the rules- better to stay in a crocodile's mouth than attempt to escape. The effect of being grappled had no impact on the in-mouth PC's ability to fight. Yes, you were taking damage every round, but it was (IIRC) far less damage than the initial bite attack which initiates the grapple. Depending on my expectations, imagining that might be better or worse. Imagining a fantasy scenario? It's a bit strange. If I'm imagining something with more of a mythic or superhero edge, it makes a little more sense. If I'm imagining a comedic take on combat, I think it fits. Another example would be the classic archetype of a knight on horseback. It's a common fantasy trope to charge the big monster in a blaze of glory; imagining that isn't difficult. It kinda works as a paladin (or maybe a ranger). Otherwise? A mount tends to be more of a liability. Even worse, depending on what game is being played, spending money on that liability means not having the items or abilities the game says should be had at a certain level. I see that as a conflict between what a player would imagine versus what a game says is appropriate. Is fantasy reality? Again, no. But I would posit that having a shared baseline understanding is good for imagination and buying in to a narrative. The reason I brought up wrestling is because it is a similar fictional portrayal of an exaggerated reality. It is a type of fantasy. However, despite being fantasy, it tries to start from a baseline of being "real" which the audience can understand, imagine, and buy into. As more steps have been taken to move away from that baseline, viewership and audience participation has objectively and measurably trended downward. The audience which remains tends to be those who view it through the lens of it being more "game" than those who suspend belief and buy into the narrative. I believe something similar happens in tabletop gaming and the ability of players to view characters as more than game pieces. In the context of gaming, the trend is not (I think) less players, but I think there are commonalities in terms of how those who play now view gaming through a different lens. [/QUOTE]
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