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Worlds of Design: A Worthy End?
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9230811" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>I don't see how. It is, as you say, the player deciding to do it. Characters cannot do things unless the player chooses to. That's one of the bedrock assumptions of TTRPG play, that unless the rules explicitly say otherwise, the player decides how their character behaves.</p><p></p><p></p><p>All of these things are player activities. Some of them match up cleanly to character motivations. Others match up rather abstractly. "XP-chasing" may not <em>literally</em> exist, as in characters do not think of how much XP they will earn (other than in typically rather comedic universes), but the idea of facing tougher opponents in order to refine your skills is as old as being a mercenary (or bandit). "Kill everything and take the stuff" only to then sit on a pile of riches like a dragon, as many old-school murderhobos did, really doesn't match up very well to the kinds of things <em>people</em> do. Especially when it comes from a place of incredibly dangerous spelunking into murder-filled tombs and whatnot.</p><p></p><p>Further, you don't need to have a single <em>favorite</em> thing in order to have things you prefer to do or to avoid. You can have things you, as a player, wish to see occur in the game before you even have a character to play. E.g., I like to play dragonborn and either paladins or sorcerers. A character's ends could not possibly be involved in that preference, because those are preferences for deciding what character to play in the first place. Likewise, I prefer games that have a generally lighter, heroic tone: even if bad things happen to good people, and even if things sometimes go very wrong and maybe stay that way for a while, good people can, with hard work and cooperation, genuinely make things better and keep them that way for a decent while. As a tonal and cosmological preference, these again cannot even in principle be mapped to a character's preferences or ends, yet they are still extremely relevant to the question of "what is a worthy end?" in the context of TTRPGs. They define the parameters under which roleplay can subsequently play out.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Only if you <em>exclusively</em> consider worthiness in an in-character way. There is also worthiness <em>to you as a player</em>. What do you as a player find worth doing? Just because you don't have a single favorite thing doesn't mean you don't have things you prefer to do or to avoid, whether or not any given character might think otherwise.</p><p></p><p>For example, you <em>as a player</em> might not want to play in a game where slavery takes a prominent role. Or you might specifically want to play a game where politics and economics are central. These things cannot be mapped to a character's preferences, not even in principle, and yet they are clearly part of what makes gameplay worthwhile--"worthy"--to the player. They are a player's concerns about what <em>kind</em> of roelplay they want to engage with. A character can no more choose whether their world's history features or doesn't feature slavery, or whether adventurous folks have a role to play in current political events, than you can choose that about your own world--but you as a player <em>can</em> make that choice about the worlds you choose to play characters in.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Only under some definitions of "roleplaying," and only if we exclude things like the above "I want to play X"/"I don't want to play Y" considerations. Hence why Umbran referenced Session Zero and players articulating their gameplay/tone/story preferences.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I genuinely do not believe it is possible for this to occur. If the player truly sees no value in it at all, they have no reason to do it. They may have an extrinsic value enforced on it, e.g. it's a requirement for them to continue participating in the stuff they do value. But if it truly has no value to them at all, then it's irrelevant what the character thinks. It won't be played.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I have no idea how this "diminishes roleplay," it sounds like exactly the sort of situation that we should encourage. If the player values the same sorts of things the character values, even if for different reasons, then the player will actively and enthusiastically <em>seek out</em> opportunities to express these behaviors. That sounds, to my ears, like the <em>most</em> desirable outcome.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't see how that is possible either, since the post repeatedly speaks of <em>player</em> interests, of <em>systems</em> creating incentives (which can only be understood by players, not by characters), of "murderhobos" (a concept describing an often-disliked pattern of <em>player</em> behavior, not <em>character</em> behavior), of "campaigns that want to explore more than just what’s gained at the point of a sword". <em>Campaigns</em> can't want anything--nor can characters want anything at the level of a "campaign." But players can--exactly the kind of Session Zero stuff</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 9230811, member: 6790260"] I don't see how. It is, as you say, the player deciding to do it. Characters cannot do things unless the player chooses to. That's one of the bedrock assumptions of TTRPG play, that unless the rules explicitly say otherwise, the player decides how their character behaves. All of these things are player activities. Some of them match up cleanly to character motivations. Others match up rather abstractly. "XP-chasing" may not [I]literally[/I] exist, as in characters do not think of how much XP they will earn (other than in typically rather comedic universes), but the idea of facing tougher opponents in order to refine your skills is as old as being a mercenary (or bandit). "Kill everything and take the stuff" only to then sit on a pile of riches like a dragon, as many old-school murderhobos did, really doesn't match up very well to the kinds of things [I]people[/I] do. Especially when it comes from a place of incredibly dangerous spelunking into murder-filled tombs and whatnot. Further, you don't need to have a single [I]favorite[/I] thing in order to have things you prefer to do or to avoid. You can have things you, as a player, wish to see occur in the game before you even have a character to play. E.g., I like to play dragonborn and either paladins or sorcerers. A character's ends could not possibly be involved in that preference, because those are preferences for deciding what character to play in the first place. Likewise, I prefer games that have a generally lighter, heroic tone: even if bad things happen to good people, and even if things sometimes go very wrong and maybe stay that way for a while, good people can, with hard work and cooperation, genuinely make things better and keep them that way for a decent while. As a tonal and cosmological preference, these again cannot even in principle be mapped to a character's preferences or ends, yet they are still extremely relevant to the question of "what is a worthy end?" in the context of TTRPGs. They define the parameters under which roleplay can subsequently play out. Only if you [I]exclusively[/I] consider worthiness in an in-character way. There is also worthiness [I]to you as a player[/I]. What do you as a player find worth doing? Just because you don't have a single favorite thing doesn't mean you don't have things you prefer to do or to avoid, whether or not any given character might think otherwise. For example, you [I]as a player[/I] might not want to play in a game where slavery takes a prominent role. Or you might specifically want to play a game where politics and economics are central. These things cannot be mapped to a character's preferences, not even in principle, and yet they are clearly part of what makes gameplay worthwhile--"worthy"--to the player. They are a player's concerns about what [I]kind[/I] of roelplay they want to engage with. A character can no more choose whether their world's history features or doesn't feature slavery, or whether adventurous folks have a role to play in current political events, than you can choose that about your own world--but you as a player [I]can[/I] make that choice about the worlds you choose to play characters in. Only under some definitions of "roleplaying," and only if we exclude things like the above "I want to play X"/"I don't want to play Y" considerations. Hence why Umbran referenced Session Zero and players articulating their gameplay/tone/story preferences. I genuinely do not believe it is possible for this to occur. If the player truly sees no value in it at all, they have no reason to do it. They may have an extrinsic value enforced on it, e.g. it's a requirement for them to continue participating in the stuff they do value. But if it truly has no value to them at all, then it's irrelevant what the character thinks. It won't be played. I have no idea how this "diminishes roleplay," it sounds like exactly the sort of situation that we should encourage. If the player values the same sorts of things the character values, even if for different reasons, then the player will actively and enthusiastically [I]seek out[/I] opportunities to express these behaviors. That sounds, to my ears, like the [I]most[/I] desirable outcome. I don't see how that is possible either, since the post repeatedly speaks of [I]player[/I] interests, of [I]systems[/I] creating incentives (which can only be understood by players, not by characters), of "murderhobos" (a concept describing an often-disliked pattern of [I]player[/I] behavior, not [I]character[/I] behavior), of "campaigns that want to explore more than just what’s gained at the point of a sword". [I]Campaigns[/I] can't want anything--nor can characters want anything at the level of a "campaign." But players can--exactly the kind of Session Zero stuff [/QUOTE]
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