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Worlds of Design: Reassessing Tolkien’s Influence
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<blockquote data-quote="Mannahnin" data-source="post: 9216350" data-attributes="member: 7026594"><p>I think the facts support points made on many sides here. Archers are expensive in terms of training time. The bows themselves are not that expensive. Firearms were more expensive to produce, but troops to wield them are MUCH less of an investment of time and training (and food and lodging and keeping men on a payroll, again in a time before the kind of professional standing armies we think of nowadays). Archers were elite in terms of their skills and the time it took to develop them, but cheap in that ordinary yeomen not part of a standing army were expected to support themselves when not actively at war but also required to continue their training and practice at home, rather than being full-time soldiers on a payroll.</p><p></p><p>Circumstance made the Longbow a traditional weapon of the English, and beyond pure battlefield effectiveness (which gradually waned as armor and firearm technologies improved), they had cultural cachet.</p><p></p><p>The Mary Rose sank in 1545. Agincourt was in 1415. As Ezekial pointed out, hand-held guns started to be common in war a little later than Agincourt and gradually saw improvement and increasingly widespread use through the 1400s and 1500s, with the proper flintlock arriving in 1610. So the Mary Rose sank while smoothbore guns were coming into their ascendency but had not yet eclipsed the bow, but also in the cultural context of the English longbow being a symbol of national myth and pride, arguably its ultimate military triumph to that point and highest point of glory having taken place a little over a century prior. </p><p></p><p>I suggest that longbows being aboard the Mary Rose is less a sign that they were still an uncontestably better weapon, than that they were <em>among </em>the best still, and were a point of particular national pride. They had prestige, and had not yet been outmoded. And yes, their wielders were elite in the sense of possessing a highly trained skill.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yup.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree with you both. Obviously D&D is highly anachronistic in having full plate armor without common firearms. There's definitely room for overlap if one wants a more historical game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mannahnin, post: 9216350, member: 7026594"] I think the facts support points made on many sides here. Archers are expensive in terms of training time. The bows themselves are not that expensive. Firearms were more expensive to produce, but troops to wield them are MUCH less of an investment of time and training (and food and lodging and keeping men on a payroll, again in a time before the kind of professional standing armies we think of nowadays). Archers were elite in terms of their skills and the time it took to develop them, but cheap in that ordinary yeomen not part of a standing army were expected to support themselves when not actively at war but also required to continue their training and practice at home, rather than being full-time soldiers on a payroll. Circumstance made the Longbow a traditional weapon of the English, and beyond pure battlefield effectiveness (which gradually waned as armor and firearm technologies improved), they had cultural cachet. The Mary Rose sank in 1545. Agincourt was in 1415. As Ezekial pointed out, hand-held guns started to be common in war a little later than Agincourt and gradually saw improvement and increasingly widespread use through the 1400s and 1500s, with the proper flintlock arriving in 1610. So the Mary Rose sank while smoothbore guns were coming into their ascendency but had not yet eclipsed the bow, but also in the cultural context of the English longbow being a symbol of national myth and pride, arguably its ultimate military triumph to that point and highest point of glory having taken place a little over a century prior. I suggest that longbows being aboard the Mary Rose is less a sign that they were still an uncontestably better weapon, than that they were [I]among [/I]the best still, and were a point of particular national pride. They had prestige, and had not yet been outmoded. And yes, their wielders were elite in the sense of possessing a highly trained skill. Yup. I agree with you both. Obviously D&D is highly anachronistic in having full plate armor without common firearms. There's definitely room for overlap if one wants a more historical game. [/QUOTE]
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