Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Worlds of Design: The Price of Advancement
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Jfdlsjfd" data-source="post: 8854555" data-attributes="member: 42856"><p>It was more reflecting an academic learning where students spend a semester getting formal education (ding, level) then get sent a semester in internship to put their skills to use and hone them before getting back next year for the next teaching session. Which is a great model for some classes (Students, we have now covered the basics of fireball and fly. From January to May, you'll be required to kill a troll and three harpies as part of your curriculum. Next year, with the survivors among you, we'll start with Advanced Transmutation and the Polymorph spell...) Or for martial artists when you've been taught and can perform satisfying katas but need to get some actual experience to complete it and get your belt (but then, it's often not that separated). I wouldn't discard that as "not reflecting how people actually learn". It's not a great model for how adventurer would like to learn, though, as they are already supposed to be masters of their skills from the get go in 5e. Tier 1 is "local heroes" not "peasant who just picked up a sword". The money part was the oddest (but maybe it was because the game designer was from a country where educational costs are supported by the student?) because it imply a model of relationship between trainee and teacher that should be world-dependant. At some level, I can't imagine a 16th level hero sending 3,000 gp to a 18th level peer to get a quick Planeshift primer or how to get the basic on the breathing exercices that makes one ageless. They'd trade in favour instead, and it would be much more interesting.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>True, they get better with experience... but experience helps you doing thing you know how to do better. If you're a trained swimmer, the key to the Olympics is to swim a lot. And do exercices that will make you a better swimmer. On the other hand, <em>no</em> olympic swimmer has started with experience, being thrown in the middle of the lake and told to practice swimming toward the shore by people in a little boat. Unless you consider abilities gained as level up as rediscovered by the character each time, they don't sound to me extension of something the character already knew, outside of proficiency bonus improving. Let's take an exemple with the Fighter class, one that is joined when you failed to enter Wizard college. Sure, you can "dress" Action surge as becoming faster because your training make you better at doing fighting moves. But suddenly, at 3rd level, you get your martial archetype. If you've been killing people with arrows for 2 levels, suddenly, one of your arrow can displace someone to the feywild or explode on impact. Do you think it's the natural result of training with arrows or a "trick" someone might give a few hints about with the rest of the mastery coming from practice? Even if Arcane Archer was the worst choice, Echo Knight (suddenly, bashing people with a mace makes a fantomatic double of you appear), Banneret (people wounds disappear as you encourage them... that's something every orator in the world through talking and why political speech are prescribed alongside vitamins by doctors?), the cavalier who never had seen a horse become a master horseman, and so on. Outside of the champion who doubles his critical range and just become "better at doing things he did before", most of the abilities involve getting something <em>new</em> that doesn't immediately flow from already known abilities. They might not learn "at a desk" but I don't think AD&D explicitely described the training as "sitting in a classroom". Training to learn how to ride, and do so effectively in battle, is certainly easier at an equitation school than by seeing a horse in the wild and saying suddenly "I'll jump on one and learn how to control it..."</p><p></p><p></p><p>True. Once they start working. Which means that they already got the basic skills they need to function in their job. However, levels in current D&D don't involve just improving at things you know, but getting new abilities. If you're a modern car mechanics, you can become a better car mechanics by repairing cars all your life... but at no point will you sprout the ability to be a modern aircraft mechanics which is more in line with what D&D leveling is about.</p><p></p><p>This is compounded by the fact that leveling can be in a entire new class or, since it's D&D general, a prestige class.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I am surprised by this last statement. Why would skill development be more fitting for "games set in modern times"? Also, Runequest and d100 systems: the rejection dates from the early eighties and was initialy designed for medieval fantasy.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If what they do is unique so there is no teacher, I wouldn't call that learning but researching. The two spells per level that wizards gain are supposed to reflect off-stage independant research by the wizard, so they can get spells at high levels. But for the more common, low-to-mid level spells, it's much easier to just learn them from a scroll overnight rather than developping the technique by yourself and independant research. Battle Master get a proficiency with a tool: did they really invent mapmaking or glassblowing independantly? If so, why did they spend so much time instead of learning it with a master? The "uniqueness" of abilities can explain high level development, at levels... apparently nobody plays if we're to trust Enworld's common knowledge about that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There is a little exaggeration going in this article. While he's extremely self-taught, the Wikipedia article about him has a quote of him:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Unless he managed to be thrown of piano schools before less than two days has passed in each, there might be some more formal training than assumed. Also, he joined "bands" (several of them) and it's entirely possible he got to learn a few things by companionship with more experienced band members, which is a form of "training" in the D&D sense.</p><p></p><p>Also, while he's one of the great composer of our time, he's still level 1. Apollo and Marsyas are able to make tree weeps with their music, something that Hans Zimmer has yet to achieve. Also, while is musing is elative and inspiring to great heights, he can't get a flight speed out of it. He's just... naturally gifted (high relevant stat), with expertise in the composing tools as his free 1st level feat.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And that book seeks to make other become a better GM, doesn't it? So by spending some downtime and spending gp on the book, I can improve my GM level? Sure, you indeed demonstrated that GM is learnt from experience there...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Err... Eberron?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I assume the character train all the time when offscreen. For most of them, it's a matter of survival, given their field of work. It may include downtime learning as well, even if they only display a technique at a later date.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jfdlsjfd, post: 8854555, member: 42856"] It was more reflecting an academic learning where students spend a semester getting formal education (ding, level) then get sent a semester in internship to put their skills to use and hone them before getting back next year for the next teaching session. Which is a great model for some classes (Students, we have now covered the basics of fireball and fly. From January to May, you'll be required to kill a troll and three harpies as part of your curriculum. Next year, with the survivors among you, we'll start with Advanced Transmutation and the Polymorph spell...) Or for martial artists when you've been taught and can perform satisfying katas but need to get some actual experience to complete it and get your belt (but then, it's often not that separated). I wouldn't discard that as "not reflecting how people actually learn". It's not a great model for how adventurer would like to learn, though, as they are already supposed to be masters of their skills from the get go in 5e. Tier 1 is "local heroes" not "peasant who just picked up a sword". The money part was the oddest (but maybe it was because the game designer was from a country where educational costs are supported by the student?) because it imply a model of relationship between trainee and teacher that should be world-dependant. At some level, I can't imagine a 16th level hero sending 3,000 gp to a 18th level peer to get a quick Planeshift primer or how to get the basic on the breathing exercices that makes one ageless. They'd trade in favour instead, and it would be much more interesting. True, they get better with experience... but experience helps you doing thing you know how to do better. If you're a trained swimmer, the key to the Olympics is to swim a lot. And do exercices that will make you a better swimmer. On the other hand, [I]no[/I] olympic swimmer has started with experience, being thrown in the middle of the lake and told to practice swimming toward the shore by people in a little boat. Unless you consider abilities gained as level up as rediscovered by the character each time, they don't sound to me extension of something the character already knew, outside of proficiency bonus improving. Let's take an exemple with the Fighter class, one that is joined when you failed to enter Wizard college. Sure, you can "dress" Action surge as becoming faster because your training make you better at doing fighting moves. But suddenly, at 3rd level, you get your martial archetype. If you've been killing people with arrows for 2 levels, suddenly, one of your arrow can displace someone to the feywild or explode on impact. Do you think it's the natural result of training with arrows or a "trick" someone might give a few hints about with the rest of the mastery coming from practice? Even if Arcane Archer was the worst choice, Echo Knight (suddenly, bashing people with a mace makes a fantomatic double of you appear), Banneret (people wounds disappear as you encourage them... that's something every orator in the world through talking and why political speech are prescribed alongside vitamins by doctors?), the cavalier who never had seen a horse become a master horseman, and so on. Outside of the champion who doubles his critical range and just become "better at doing things he did before", most of the abilities involve getting something [I]new[/I] that doesn't immediately flow from already known abilities. They might not learn "at a desk" but I don't think AD&D explicitely described the training as "sitting in a classroom". Training to learn how to ride, and do so effectively in battle, is certainly easier at an equitation school than by seeing a horse in the wild and saying suddenly "I'll jump on one and learn how to control it..." True. Once they start working. Which means that they already got the basic skills they need to function in their job. However, levels in current D&D don't involve just improving at things you know, but getting new abilities. If you're a modern car mechanics, you can become a better car mechanics by repairing cars all your life... but at no point will you sprout the ability to be a modern aircraft mechanics which is more in line with what D&D leveling is about. This is compounded by the fact that leveling can be in a entire new class or, since it's D&D general, a prestige class. I am surprised by this last statement. Why would skill development be more fitting for "games set in modern times"? Also, Runequest and d100 systems: the rejection dates from the early eighties and was initialy designed for medieval fantasy. If what they do is unique so there is no teacher, I wouldn't call that learning but researching. The two spells per level that wizards gain are supposed to reflect off-stage independant research by the wizard, so they can get spells at high levels. But for the more common, low-to-mid level spells, it's much easier to just learn them from a scroll overnight rather than developping the technique by yourself and independant research. Battle Master get a proficiency with a tool: did they really invent mapmaking or glassblowing independantly? If so, why did they spend so much time instead of learning it with a master? The "uniqueness" of abilities can explain high level development, at levels... apparently nobody plays if we're to trust Enworld's common knowledge about that. There is a little exaggeration going in this article. While he's extremely self-taught, the Wikipedia article about him has a quote of him: Unless he managed to be thrown of piano schools before less than two days has passed in each, there might be some more formal training than assumed. Also, he joined "bands" (several of them) and it's entirely possible he got to learn a few things by companionship with more experienced band members, which is a form of "training" in the D&D sense. Also, while he's one of the great composer of our time, he's still level 1. Apollo and Marsyas are able to make tree weeps with their music, something that Hans Zimmer has yet to achieve. Also, while is musing is elative and inspiring to great heights, he can't get a flight speed out of it. He's just... naturally gifted (high relevant stat), with expertise in the composing tools as his free 1st level feat. And that book seeks to make other become a better GM, doesn't it? So by spending some downtime and spending gp on the book, I can improve my GM level? Sure, you indeed demonstrated that GM is learnt from experience there... Err... Eberron? I assume the character train all the time when offscreen. For most of them, it's a matter of survival, given their field of work. It may include downtime learning as well, even if they only display a technique at a later date. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Worlds of Design: The Price of Advancement
Top