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Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)
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<blockquote data-quote="The Sigil" data-source="post: 1955940" data-attributes="member: 2013"><p>*shrugs* Perhaps I think that Cedric is NOT designed around the conflict between his carnality and the more commonly orthodox doctrine of his religion because <em>there is no question in his own mind</em>. Cedric is not an example of conflict in and of himself; rather, he only creates tension when he has to deal with another member of his religion. Big difference. This is no different then creating an "elf who likes dwarves and hates elves - except himself" because the character's personality does nothing mind-stretching by itself - it requires someone else to tease the mind-stretching out.</p><p></p><p>If Cedric was exploring the conflict within himself, I might give him the benefit of the doubt and let him be cast as a paladin. But as I have mentioned before, in the snippet we were given, his habits are described as vices and his reaction really didn't show that he didn't think they weren't vices, but rather he has no problems succumbing to the appetites of the flesh ("if I want the comfort of a drink or of legs wrapped around me, I deserve it" or whatever the exact phrase was). </p><p></p><p>In my mind, now that Cedric has not only surrendered to his carnal desires, but embraces them, makes him a <strong>fallen paladin</strong> - not because he's slipped and fallen (as all in the human condition do) but because he has no desire to "get back up and try again." There's simply no two ways about that. So here we have someone who has not even the desire to control his appetites (not a particularly lawful trait) and who engages in behavior most would consider dishonorable (probably neither a good nor a lawful one)... everything about this character screams "neutral" - cares for others (good), but also makes sure he gets what he wants (evil). Does whatever he wants in his private life (chaotic) while doing what duty requires (lawful). That balance suggests "neutral."</p><p></p><p>Now you're telling me that paladins are LG and only LG... but this character, who seems to be Neutral, is a paladin. That creates "intellectual dissonance" (by which I mean sending mixed signals that pain the mind when you try to comprehend both at once - or that which happens when you try to engage in "doublethink" for you Orwell fans).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Bullocks, followed by a straw man. What better way to explore the conflict over what it means to be a paladin than by having an "ex-paladin" - the one who has seen BOTH sides of the coin (being and not being a paladin)? Someone who has only seen one side (a paladin) cannot truly know what it means to be a paladin because he hasn't experienced life without it, right (we do not know what we have until it is lost and all that)? Casting Sir Cedric as a fighter/cleric, a pure cleric, a pure fighter, or even an ex-paladin still allows you to explore what is a paladin... by exploring the character who is "not quite a paladin" and seeing where he falls short! You can come at the limits of paladinhood from the other side, you know!</p><p></p><p></p><p>No, Cedric is the equivalent of a character who thinks magic is evil, spooky, and doesn't like the fact that things can just appear out of thin air, and refuses to have anything to do with the supernatural... and oh, by the way, is a sorcerer. Simply put, a character like that, even if he had latent sorcerer powers, would refuse to use them and take another career path! Or a devout atheist... who just happens to be a high priest receiving great blessings because of his faith in his deity. It simply doesn't work without causing headaches! </p><p></p><p>You're using fiat to overrule common sense. In some ways, the paladin class (along with every other class), is not a buffet where you can pick and choose what you want; it is an ensemble meal, all parts of which you must accept. With a sorcerer, you must accept that at some level, the character accepts magic and is willing to use it. With a bard, you accept that the character not only has some musical talent, but uses it. With a paladin, you accept that the character must be lawful good and adhere to a code of conduct and everything that goes with it. You can't just discard the code of conduct or the LG alignment because "it doesn't fit the character you want to create." </p><p></p><p>(Maybe I'm just a bit sensitive about this point because it seems like every single player I've ever gamed with who wants a "thought-provoking paladin" really wants "a paladin without the goofy alignment restriction whom I can play as CN/CE.")</p><p></p><p>Similarly, Cedric's attitudes suggest that he could not have stayed on the path of paladinhood for long, if at all, since not only did he succumb to the appetites of the flesh (a chaotic trait), he doesn't really see any point of fighting off those appetites. He simply doesn't believe in some of the principles I see as being core to a paladin (for instance, the lawful good alignment, to me, implies some measure of self-discipline, which he obviously does not want to practice... well, if you don't want to practice that, you're not LG, and therefore not a paladin).</p><p></p><p>All of this is IMO, YMMV, etc. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>--The Sigil</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="The Sigil, post: 1955940, member: 2013"] *shrugs* Perhaps I think that Cedric is NOT designed around the conflict between his carnality and the more commonly orthodox doctrine of his religion because [i]there is no question in his own mind[/i]. Cedric is not an example of conflict in and of himself; rather, he only creates tension when he has to deal with another member of his religion. Big difference. This is no different then creating an "elf who likes dwarves and hates elves - except himself" because the character's personality does nothing mind-stretching by itself - it requires someone else to tease the mind-stretching out. If Cedric was exploring the conflict within himself, I might give him the benefit of the doubt and let him be cast as a paladin. But as I have mentioned before, in the snippet we were given, his habits are described as vices and his reaction really didn't show that he didn't think they weren't vices, but rather he has no problems succumbing to the appetites of the flesh ("if I want the comfort of a drink or of legs wrapped around me, I deserve it" or whatever the exact phrase was). In my mind, now that Cedric has not only surrendered to his carnal desires, but embraces them, makes him a [b]fallen paladin[/b] - not because he's slipped and fallen (as all in the human condition do) but because he has no desire to "get back up and try again." There's simply no two ways about that. So here we have someone who has not even the desire to control his appetites (not a particularly lawful trait) and who engages in behavior most would consider dishonorable (probably neither a good nor a lawful one)... everything about this character screams "neutral" - cares for others (good), but also makes sure he gets what he wants (evil). Does whatever he wants in his private life (chaotic) while doing what duty requires (lawful). That balance suggests "neutral." Now you're telling me that paladins are LG and only LG... but this character, who seems to be Neutral, is a paladin. That creates "intellectual dissonance" (by which I mean sending mixed signals that pain the mind when you try to comprehend both at once - or that which happens when you try to engage in "doublethink" for you Orwell fans). Bullocks, followed by a straw man. What better way to explore the conflict over what it means to be a paladin than by having an "ex-paladin" - the one who has seen BOTH sides of the coin (being and not being a paladin)? Someone who has only seen one side (a paladin) cannot truly know what it means to be a paladin because he hasn't experienced life without it, right (we do not know what we have until it is lost and all that)? Casting Sir Cedric as a fighter/cleric, a pure cleric, a pure fighter, or even an ex-paladin still allows you to explore what is a paladin... by exploring the character who is "not quite a paladin" and seeing where he falls short! You can come at the limits of paladinhood from the other side, you know! No, Cedric is the equivalent of a character who thinks magic is evil, spooky, and doesn't like the fact that things can just appear out of thin air, and refuses to have anything to do with the supernatural... and oh, by the way, is a sorcerer. Simply put, a character like that, even if he had latent sorcerer powers, would refuse to use them and take another career path! Or a devout atheist... who just happens to be a high priest receiving great blessings because of his faith in his deity. It simply doesn't work without causing headaches! You're using fiat to overrule common sense. In some ways, the paladin class (along with every other class), is not a buffet where you can pick and choose what you want; it is an ensemble meal, all parts of which you must accept. With a sorcerer, you must accept that at some level, the character accepts magic and is willing to use it. With a bard, you accept that the character not only has some musical talent, but uses it. With a paladin, you accept that the character must be lawful good and adhere to a code of conduct and everything that goes with it. You can't just discard the code of conduct or the LG alignment because "it doesn't fit the character you want to create." (Maybe I'm just a bit sensitive about this point because it seems like every single player I've ever gamed with who wants a "thought-provoking paladin" really wants "a paladin without the goofy alignment restriction whom I can play as CN/CE.") Similarly, Cedric's attitudes suggest that he could not have stayed on the path of paladinhood for long, if at all, since not only did he succumb to the appetites of the flesh (a chaotic trait), he doesn't really see any point of fighting off those appetites. He simply doesn't believe in some of the principles I see as being core to a paladin (for instance, the lawful good alignment, to me, implies some measure of self-discipline, which he obviously does not want to practice... well, if you don't want to practice that, you're not LG, and therefore not a paladin). All of this is IMO, YMMV, etc. ;) --The Sigil [/QUOTE]
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