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Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)
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<blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 1957751" data-attributes="member: 3146"><p>IMO, it neither makes him more of a paladin nor muddies the waters--it simply continues the hollywoodization of the story with the implicit intent to make prostitution seem like a good, shiny, happy thing. If you want to write a story and conclude it "and this is the moral: prostitution is a neutral--and possibly a good--thing, and debauchery can be both lawful and good" you can do that, but it no more demonstrates the point than creating an order of Holy Torturers who are, by DM/author fiat Lawful Good, would demonstrate that torture is lawful or good.</p><p></p><p>However, as to the story itself: In some ways, it makes the situation worse for Cedric. Cedric's speech to Magnus is most obviously interpreted as exhibiting defensiveness, hostility to external standards, and a sense of entitlement. The most reasonable way to interpret Cedric's relationship with the brothel based on the original story alone is simple hedonism. Cedric has decided that, if the battle against evil is winnable, he won't live to see it and has decided to invest his energy in seeking pleasure when he has the opportunity to do so rather than wholeheartedly focussing upon the struggle or (so it appears) giving it any more attention than is required. (Sir Cedric, from the beginning seemed to me to approach paladinhood as his job--the thing that he does when it's required--rather than who he is).</p><p></p><p>If Cedric does not consider the nature of his business in the brothel as entirely hedonistic, then his angry speech is disingenuous. It's not just about the pleasure he deserves and the battle he thinks he can't win. By misleading Magnus as to his true motives, he encourages Magnus to either entirely reject Cedric and to tighten the strings of his "unnecessary traditions" in order to avoid falling into the position of Sir Cedric or he encourages Cedric to take him at his word and adopt pure hedonism without whatever mixed motives and effects this part implies there might be. It's one thing if that is the result of an authentic defensive reaction. It's another thing entirely if it isn't. And, it seems to me that the most authentic defense of a mixed motive version of Sir Cedric would contain at least some clues as to his true motives. In other words, even if it is granted that this story is in some way exculpatory, that raises a new question of honesty and judgement.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, the title of the second part: "Through the Eyes of Others" is misleading. Even, accepting the story at face value (which I don't--control of the story is too important a factor in a question like this to be left to an interested party to expand at will to the exclusion of other interested parties), it is still only the story through the eyes of others who were positively affected by Sir Cedric. There is no mention of the man in town who saw that Sir Cedric obviously has no problem with brothels and was thereby enabled to overcome whatever reluctance he might have otherwise had (and Sir Magnus's reaction indicates that there is at least some social disapproval of prostitution and debauchery in this culture) to frequenting the less holywoodized (but cheaper) brothel down the street. There's no mention of the drunk on the verge giving up the bottle who sees Sir Magnus putting away the beers and decides that, if it's good enough for a knight, it's good enough for him. There's no mention of the girl who sees the glamorous clients that these prostitutes get and is thereby encouraged to make choices she will later regret and may never be able to reverse.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Elder-Basilisk, post: 1957751, member: 3146"] IMO, it neither makes him more of a paladin nor muddies the waters--it simply continues the hollywoodization of the story with the implicit intent to make prostitution seem like a good, shiny, happy thing. If you want to write a story and conclude it "and this is the moral: prostitution is a neutral--and possibly a good--thing, and debauchery can be both lawful and good" you can do that, but it no more demonstrates the point than creating an order of Holy Torturers who are, by DM/author fiat Lawful Good, would demonstrate that torture is lawful or good. However, as to the story itself: In some ways, it makes the situation worse for Cedric. Cedric's speech to Magnus is most obviously interpreted as exhibiting defensiveness, hostility to external standards, and a sense of entitlement. The most reasonable way to interpret Cedric's relationship with the brothel based on the original story alone is simple hedonism. Cedric has decided that, if the battle against evil is winnable, he won't live to see it and has decided to invest his energy in seeking pleasure when he has the opportunity to do so rather than wholeheartedly focussing upon the struggle or (so it appears) giving it any more attention than is required. (Sir Cedric, from the beginning seemed to me to approach paladinhood as his job--the thing that he does when it's required--rather than who he is). If Cedric does not consider the nature of his business in the brothel as entirely hedonistic, then his angry speech is disingenuous. It's not just about the pleasure he deserves and the battle he thinks he can't win. By misleading Magnus as to his true motives, he encourages Magnus to either entirely reject Cedric and to tighten the strings of his "unnecessary traditions" in order to avoid falling into the position of Sir Cedric or he encourages Cedric to take him at his word and adopt pure hedonism without whatever mixed motives and effects this part implies there might be. It's one thing if that is the result of an authentic defensive reaction. It's another thing entirely if it isn't. And, it seems to me that the most authentic defense of a mixed motive version of Sir Cedric would contain at least some clues as to his true motives. In other words, even if it is granted that this story is in some way exculpatory, that raises a new question of honesty and judgement. Anyway, the title of the second part: "Through the Eyes of Others" is misleading. Even, accepting the story at face value (which I don't--control of the story is too important a factor in a question like this to be left to an interested party to expand at will to the exclusion of other interested parties), it is still only the story through the eyes of others who were positively affected by Sir Cedric. There is no mention of the man in town who saw that Sir Cedric obviously has no problem with brothels and was thereby enabled to overcome whatever reluctance he might have otherwise had (and Sir Magnus's reaction indicates that there is at least some social disapproval of prostitution and debauchery in this culture) to frequenting the less holywoodized (but cheaper) brothel down the street. There's no mention of the drunk on the verge giving up the bottle who sees Sir Magnus putting away the beers and decides that, if it's good enough for a knight, it's good enough for him. There's no mention of the girl who sees the glamorous clients that these prostitutes get and is thereby encouraged to make choices she will later regret and may never be able to reverse. [/QUOTE]
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Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)
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