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Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)
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<blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 1961676" data-attributes="member: 3146"><p>You're misinterpreting me. What I'm saying is that the kind of hermetic seal that seems to be postulated by you and other posters between the various kinds of prostitution is a bad way to approach the issue. (Your position might be rhetorically summed up as this: OK, all prostitution isn't OK, but some of it is and since this is one of the [unusual] kinds that fits my definition of OK prostitution, it's the only kind that's relevant.) I think that there's a lot more to even the higher class prostitution than you're covering, (aside from any inherent issues about the nature and purpose of sex, there's also the effect upon the johns to consider--I haven't known anyone whose marriage has been destroyed by such a habit, but I've met plenty of people who have tossed their futures away for a pair of thighs wrapped around them now) but that's not been the point I've been making. (For that matter, I also question the assumption that it's practically possible for someone to draw a bright line and accurately discern between the various kinds of prostitution, etc. IME, most rationalization of any kind begins by assuming that subtle distinctions between the various mechanisms of satisfying ones appetites are clear and can be stuck to). By patronizing this establishment which, by DM/writer fiat is entirely clean of anything improper, Sir Cedric is making a statement about his society should and should not accept and what "everyone" does and does not do. That statement does not simply apply, in the minds of his observers, to "this particular house of prostitution which is clean and well run and where everyone is there by free and informed consent with an eye by the madame towards getting them out." Rather, it applies to prostitution as a whole.</p><p></p><p>Now that I've had a while to think this over, I think that a part of this equation that has gone undiscussed in this thread so far is this: <em>appearances matter a lot</em> and any lawful good character should know that. (Ordinarily I ignore law and chaos for the reason that I think the axis is incoherent, but this concept fits so perfectly with the three lawful alignments that I think it's worth mentioning as a part of the archetype). A paladin need not just <em>do</em> the right thing; he has to be <strong>seen to do</strong> the right thing as well. Conversely, if a man or woman in a position of prestige, he will know that it is not enough to simply not do the wrong thing, he has to also not be perceived to be doing the wrong thing. A paladin considering whether or not to accept a gift from a local lord would not just consider whether the gift was actually a bribe but whether it would be seen as a bribe and would thereby tarnish his order's reputation with corruption. Working from the premise that slavery is wrong, a paladin should not only not own slaves, but should not give the impression that he supports it. (In some ways, this would circumscribe the activities of a paladin in a society where slavery is controversial like pre-civil war America much more than those of a paladin in a society where it isn't controversial like ancient Rome. The American paladin would be aware that being seen in certain places or with certain people would lend support to their cause (slavery) but, since slavery was not a cause as much as a fact of life in ancient Rome, his actions would generally not be seen to support or oppose it unless he took explicit pains to make them do so). In the same way, a paladin might have doubts about the odds for victory, but, by appearing to view failure as inevitable, he would make it so. Consequently, the life of a paladin cannot be one of unambiguous openness. When in command, he must don the mask of command. When in a position of authority and respect, he must ensure that the authority and respect is turned to good uses rather than evil ones.</p><p></p><p>It is also at least a part of the issue relating to language. Language is one of the lines by which people declare their allegiance or identity with certain parts of society. To talk about AmeriKKKa would declare my (counterfactual as it happens) allegiance with a certain political subgroup. To talk in what Tom Wolfe describes as f-- patois declares one's identity with another group. </p><p></p><p>In this sense, the <em>impression</em> that Sir Cedric is a drunkard or a lecher can be just as important as the facts of the matter. Sir Cedric, however, does not appear to take any care for appearances. In fact, that appears to be partly the point of the exercise. Sir Cedric is a paladin who does not look or act like a paladin in everyday life. (This also is about the only justification I can see for the Holy Liberator suggestion that I've seen several times on this thread. Chaotic people are expected to treat the indirect consequences of their actions as irrelevant).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Elder-Basilisk, post: 1961676, member: 3146"] You're misinterpreting me. What I'm saying is that the kind of hermetic seal that seems to be postulated by you and other posters between the various kinds of prostitution is a bad way to approach the issue. (Your position might be rhetorically summed up as this: OK, all prostitution isn't OK, but some of it is and since this is one of the [unusual] kinds that fits my definition of OK prostitution, it's the only kind that's relevant.) I think that there's a lot more to even the higher class prostitution than you're covering, (aside from any inherent issues about the nature and purpose of sex, there's also the effect upon the johns to consider--I haven't known anyone whose marriage has been destroyed by such a habit, but I've met plenty of people who have tossed their futures away for a pair of thighs wrapped around them now) but that's not been the point I've been making. (For that matter, I also question the assumption that it's practically possible for someone to draw a bright line and accurately discern between the various kinds of prostitution, etc. IME, most rationalization of any kind begins by assuming that subtle distinctions between the various mechanisms of satisfying ones appetites are clear and can be stuck to). By patronizing this establishment which, by DM/writer fiat is entirely clean of anything improper, Sir Cedric is making a statement about his society should and should not accept and what "everyone" does and does not do. That statement does not simply apply, in the minds of his observers, to "this particular house of prostitution which is clean and well run and where everyone is there by free and informed consent with an eye by the madame towards getting them out." Rather, it applies to prostitution as a whole. Now that I've had a while to think this over, I think that a part of this equation that has gone undiscussed in this thread so far is this: [i]appearances matter a lot[/i] and any lawful good character should know that. (Ordinarily I ignore law and chaos for the reason that I think the axis is incoherent, but this concept fits so perfectly with the three lawful alignments that I think it's worth mentioning as a part of the archetype). A paladin need not just [i]do[/i] the right thing; he has to be [b]seen to do[/b] the right thing as well. Conversely, if a man or woman in a position of prestige, he will know that it is not enough to simply not do the wrong thing, he has to also not be perceived to be doing the wrong thing. A paladin considering whether or not to accept a gift from a local lord would not just consider whether the gift was actually a bribe but whether it would be seen as a bribe and would thereby tarnish his order's reputation with corruption. Working from the premise that slavery is wrong, a paladin should not only not own slaves, but should not give the impression that he supports it. (In some ways, this would circumscribe the activities of a paladin in a society where slavery is controversial like pre-civil war America much more than those of a paladin in a society where it isn't controversial like ancient Rome. The American paladin would be aware that being seen in certain places or with certain people would lend support to their cause (slavery) but, since slavery was not a cause as much as a fact of life in ancient Rome, his actions would generally not be seen to support or oppose it unless he took explicit pains to make them do so). In the same way, a paladin might have doubts about the odds for victory, but, by appearing to view failure as inevitable, he would make it so. Consequently, the life of a paladin cannot be one of unambiguous openness. When in command, he must don the mask of command. When in a position of authority and respect, he must ensure that the authority and respect is turned to good uses rather than evil ones. It is also at least a part of the issue relating to language. Language is one of the lines by which people declare their allegiance or identity with certain parts of society. To talk about AmeriKKKa would declare my (counterfactual as it happens) allegiance with a certain political subgroup. To talk in what Tom Wolfe describes as f-- patois declares one's identity with another group. In this sense, the [i]impression[/i] that Sir Cedric is a drunkard or a lecher can be just as important as the facts of the matter. Sir Cedric, however, does not appear to take any care for appearances. In fact, that appears to be partly the point of the exercise. Sir Cedric is a paladin who does not look or act like a paladin in everyday life. (This also is about the only justification I can see for the Holy Liberator suggestion that I've seen several times on this thread. Chaotic people are expected to treat the indirect consequences of their actions as irrelevant). [/QUOTE]
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