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Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)
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<blockquote data-quote="reapersaurus" data-source="post: 1962148" data-attributes="member: 1194"><p>OK, let's cut to the chase here.</p><p></p><p>shilsen, I think it's manipulative for you (and others) to view this "Sir Cedric" strictly within the boundaries you are creating.</p><p>(example - viewing prostitutes thru this "working woman" lens which ignores the moral, physical, and psychological degeneracy inherent in the profession/industry. </p><p>I have not had much real-life experience with prostitutes or pimps, and I hate to break it to you, but I don't have to to have a solid footing in how prostitution is viewed by the majority of society.</p><p>There are serious problems with the lifestyle, and I think it's misleading to ignore all of them simply because you controlled all the parameters of Sir Cedric's story and placed him within "one of the good whorehouses".)</p><p></p><p>It's a further cop-out to create a high-level paladin of questionable appearance, yet he's happened to prove himself time and time again with heroic and saintly deeds, who even had his diety directly support him (in all his incorrect behavior) over a HIGH PRIEST OF HIS CHURCH. You've also apparently given Cedric a diety who thinks everything Cedric does is kosher with him. Don't you see how that's an artificial, unfair/skewed set-up to begin with?</p><p></p><p>You've also hand-waved many accurate arguments against Sir Cedric as written, basically saying "I view those objections as being subjective, and not requirements of the paladin class."</p><p></p><p>The paladin class, unlike any other, is one of absolutes and strict discipline, sacrifice, and leadership (both moral, spiritual, etc). To view it with a contemporary relativistic view is absolutely an antithesis to the concept of the class.</p><p></p><p>shilsen - it is _you_ who is proposing the non-standard view.</p><p>We can debate all we want (and your side's examples are quite compelling), but after is all said and done, we're still faced with the cold hard reality that the typical paladin would not be viwed as a whoring, excessive-drinking, excessive-cussing nihilist.</p><p></p><p>shilsen, from how you describe yourself, you and I are very similar in character/personality.</p><p>And you approach paladins in a very similar fashion to me.</p><p>I've been on record for years that there are more paladin types that should be allowed. I founded the "Paladins of the Board Unite" Play by Post thread years ago which showcased many non-standard paladins. My Kerith in that thread said many things very close to what you espouse for Sir Cedric.</p><p></p><p>But you go too far.</p><p></p><p>While it's correct that a paladin doesn't have to be a typical knight in shining armor, he DOES have to adhere to certain rules of conduct and expectations of a holy warrior. The personality traits inherent in a paladin (discipline, leadership, decisiveness, self-sacrifice, etc) are in conflict with the problematic traits you have given Sir Cedric.</p><p></p><p>If you just kept to the main thrust of the character (that a paladin's powers come from his god, and that relationship and him upholding the principles of his god is more important than the worldly church's interpretations of their diety) than it would be a stronger character.</p><p></p><p>By including the whoring (instead of simply enjoying the pleasures of flesh) and the excessive drinking (instead of just occasional drink) and the excessive cussing (instead of just being untraditional in speech and not all "flowery") and the nihilistic attitude (instead of just not being Lawful Stupid), you've pushed the character too far from being a real paladin.</p><p>There are many other things he could be - all of which are cool characters to play, I'd wager - but they aren't a Paladin.</p><p></p><p>Elder Basilisk, you keep getting down with your bad self.</p><p>It's a pleasure to read your posts on paladins. You obviously get it. </p><p>And shilsen, I know you get it, too - you just go too far with pushing the envelope with this particluar character.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="reapersaurus, post: 1962148, member: 1194"] OK, let's cut to the chase here. shilsen, I think it's manipulative for you (and others) to view this "Sir Cedric" strictly within the boundaries you are creating. (example - viewing prostitutes thru this "working woman" lens which ignores the moral, physical, and psychological degeneracy inherent in the profession/industry. I have not had much real-life experience with prostitutes or pimps, and I hate to break it to you, but I don't have to to have a solid footing in how prostitution is viewed by the majority of society. There are serious problems with the lifestyle, and I think it's misleading to ignore all of them simply because you controlled all the parameters of Sir Cedric's story and placed him within "one of the good whorehouses".) It's a further cop-out to create a high-level paladin of questionable appearance, yet he's happened to prove himself time and time again with heroic and saintly deeds, who even had his diety directly support him (in all his incorrect behavior) over a HIGH PRIEST OF HIS CHURCH. You've also apparently given Cedric a diety who thinks everything Cedric does is kosher with him. Don't you see how that's an artificial, unfair/skewed set-up to begin with? You've also hand-waved many accurate arguments against Sir Cedric as written, basically saying "I view those objections as being subjective, and not requirements of the paladin class." The paladin class, unlike any other, is one of absolutes and strict discipline, sacrifice, and leadership (both moral, spiritual, etc). To view it with a contemporary relativistic view is absolutely an antithesis to the concept of the class. shilsen - it is _you_ who is proposing the non-standard view. We can debate all we want (and your side's examples are quite compelling), but after is all said and done, we're still faced with the cold hard reality that the typical paladin would not be viwed as a whoring, excessive-drinking, excessive-cussing nihilist. shilsen, from how you describe yourself, you and I are very similar in character/personality. And you approach paladins in a very similar fashion to me. I've been on record for years that there are more paladin types that should be allowed. I founded the "Paladins of the Board Unite" Play by Post thread years ago which showcased many non-standard paladins. My Kerith in that thread said many things very close to what you espouse for Sir Cedric. But you go too far. While it's correct that a paladin doesn't have to be a typical knight in shining armor, he DOES have to adhere to certain rules of conduct and expectations of a holy warrior. The personality traits inherent in a paladin (discipline, leadership, decisiveness, self-sacrifice, etc) are in conflict with the problematic traits you have given Sir Cedric. If you just kept to the main thrust of the character (that a paladin's powers come from his god, and that relationship and him upholding the principles of his god is more important than the worldly church's interpretations of their diety) than it would be a stronger character. By including the whoring (instead of simply enjoying the pleasures of flesh) and the excessive drinking (instead of just occasional drink) and the excessive cussing (instead of just being untraditional in speech and not all "flowery") and the nihilistic attitude (instead of just not being Lawful Stupid), you've pushed the character too far from being a real paladin. There are many other things he could be - all of which are cool characters to play, I'd wager - but they aren't a Paladin. Elder Basilisk, you keep getting down with your bad self. It's a pleasure to read your posts on paladins. You obviously get it. And shilsen, I know you get it, too - you just go too far with pushing the envelope with this particluar character. [/QUOTE]
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