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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7757453" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>Not at all: I get the point of how this is in theory meant to work.</p><p></p><p>I can also clearly see how it most likely would work in practice; a much different and vastly worse outcome than the theory would suggest.</p><p></p><p>Theory: </p><p></p><p>Practice: See the difference?</p><p></p><p>But is it? Or is it being invoked because the party are losing the argument?</p><p></p><p>Without discussion, there's no way to tell.</p><p></p><p>In this example, where is the DM supposed to go with this? The party have annoyed the ruler to the point he's threatening torture; is the DM supposed to let the PCs go instead? Or to let them win the argument? Or for the ruler to find something else to threaten the PCs with (which, for all we know, could draw another X touch)?</p><p></p><p>Different if the DM is going into graphic and gory detail as to the tortures to be applied, and their effects...here an X touch should be able to make the DM back off on the detail, but not on the whole story or theme. The PCs still might be tortured, but the DM can handwave it simply by saying how many hit points each PC loses in the process, and leave them manacled to a dungeon wall to ponder their next move.</p><p></p><p>Exactly...and more to the point, would there have been an X touch if the PC hadn't been caught?</p><p></p><p>Exactly; and this might be the case even in what some might think are more obvious examples - the DM* might not realize she's doing anything wrong at all, so when the X gets touched it's not at all clear why.</p><p></p><p>* - side note: we keep saying the X touch is to rein in the DM but it could be to rein in (an)other player(s) as well.</p><p></p><p>No, it doesn't undo PC/NPC actions but it can certainly be (ab)used to prevent them from happening in the first place and-or stop them in their tracks, as per my examples re info gathering and in-party fighting.</p><p></p><p>Touching a card doesn't count, in my eyes, as explicitly complaining. Explicit complaining involves words, and discussion, and give-and-take or compromise or consensus...and yes, sometimes also leads to someone leaving the game if there is no compromise to be had.</p><p></p><p>Does she say something about it first and see if anything changes? Chances are they won't see what they're doing as wrong in any way until-unless it's pointed out to them...</p><p></p><p>But now, take the same situation - an established game-store table of middle-aged dudes - but replace that new player with a different one: another middle-aged dude whose religion causes him to be offended by any mention of devils or demons or deities that are not his deity. Is this new player allowed to in effect twist the game's morality to suit his own?</p><p></p><p>I certainly hope not.</p><p></p><p>Oh, don't worry - I ain't about to use this system.</p><p></p><p>My concern is for people who, on reading an article like this, will take up the system as presented in theory without giving any thought to what might happen in practice.</p><p></p><p>As a player I'd be leery of a DM who used this tool, as it would fly a red flag regarding the table's (or maybe just the DM's) capacity and-or willingness for real communication and discussion.</p><p></p><p>Lan-"there's no such thing as a right to not be offended; but there is such a thing as a right to speak your mind if-when offense occurs. Immense difference"-efan</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 7757453, member: 29398"] Not at all: I get the point of how this is in theory meant to work. I can also clearly see how it most likely would work in practice; a much different and vastly worse outcome than the theory would suggest. Theory: Practice: See the difference? But is it? Or is it being invoked because the party are losing the argument? Without discussion, there's no way to tell. In this example, where is the DM supposed to go with this? The party have annoyed the ruler to the point he's threatening torture; is the DM supposed to let the PCs go instead? Or to let them win the argument? Or for the ruler to find something else to threaten the PCs with (which, for all we know, could draw another X touch)? Different if the DM is going into graphic and gory detail as to the tortures to be applied, and their effects...here an X touch should be able to make the DM back off on the detail, but not on the whole story or theme. The PCs still might be tortured, but the DM can handwave it simply by saying how many hit points each PC loses in the process, and leave them manacled to a dungeon wall to ponder their next move. Exactly...and more to the point, would there have been an X touch if the PC hadn't been caught? Exactly; and this might be the case even in what some might think are more obvious examples - the DM* might not realize she's doing anything wrong at all, so when the X gets touched it's not at all clear why. * - side note: we keep saying the X touch is to rein in the DM but it could be to rein in (an)other player(s) as well. No, it doesn't undo PC/NPC actions but it can certainly be (ab)used to prevent them from happening in the first place and-or stop them in their tracks, as per my examples re info gathering and in-party fighting. Touching a card doesn't count, in my eyes, as explicitly complaining. Explicit complaining involves words, and discussion, and give-and-take or compromise or consensus...and yes, sometimes also leads to someone leaving the game if there is no compromise to be had. Does she say something about it first and see if anything changes? Chances are they won't see what they're doing as wrong in any way until-unless it's pointed out to them... But now, take the same situation - an established game-store table of middle-aged dudes - but replace that new player with a different one: another middle-aged dude whose religion causes him to be offended by any mention of devils or demons or deities that are not his deity. Is this new player allowed to in effect twist the game's morality to suit his own? I certainly hope not. Oh, don't worry - I ain't about to use this system. My concern is for people who, on reading an article like this, will take up the system as presented in theory without giving any thought to what might happen in practice. As a player I'd be leery of a DM who used this tool, as it would fly a red flag regarding the table's (or maybe just the DM's) capacity and-or willingness for real communication and discussion. Lan-"there's no such thing as a right to not be offended; but there is such a thing as a right to speak your mind if-when offense occurs. Immense difference"-efan [/QUOTE]
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