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<blockquote data-quote="Emberashh" data-source="post: 9209912" data-attributes="member: 7040941"><p>I can see why you'd assume, but I don't see any reason to restrict that. There's no real incentive to sit on them aside from the cost reqs for multiclassing, and theres the drawback of preventing yourself from using whatever skill increase or Perk you could have had in the meantime. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Dragonbane. Ie, mark usage and roll to confirm. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>1. I'm incorporating a more fully realized version of what, IIRC, Dungeon World did with racial class abilities. There are 6 Class archtypes (Martials, Mages, Summoners, Mystics, Divine, Nature) and each Bloodline will have 6 different "Ability Chains", which are a group of 6 Abilities in succession, which correspond to each one. You automatically unlock the chains by taking one of the requisite Class types, and you'd spend 6SPs to max out the chain in order. This goes to 12 on a second, and so on. Same MC costs apply. </p><p></p><p>Professions, as I have them now, however work like a secondary, hybridized Skill & Class system; you have a free selection over what Perks you take within them, and every one taken raises the Profession's rank, which in turn empowers the perks within and confers its own benefits, many of which will pay dividends in the Domain system. (This where Im supporting the idea that the Party could swear off adventuring and just be legendary Bakers) Then, if you want to go for multiple Professions, the same MC costs apply. </p><p></p><p>A Chef profession, for example, would naturally empower Cooking, much moreso than the base Survival skill does, and if you commit to it you can use it to form the basis of a Restaurant type Domain (ala Bakers), which can then be combined with other Player's Professions (Hunters, Merchants, Servants, etc) to form an Alliance (party) that runs that Domain as a Business. This latter part is conceptual at this stage, no real concrete mechanics to speak of yet, but this is the direction its going in. </p><p></p><p>2. Yep you got it.</p><p></p><p>3. Yes, Talents are a basically a combination of Skill modifiers and Ability scores. Each Talent, such as Strength or Intuition, has 4 Skills associated with it. The average of the 4 Skills = your Talent Modifier, which is used to modify any Skill checks made, but also any raw Talent checks that might be called for. Each Talent then gets averaged together in specific combinations to form your Energies. </p><p></p><p>The 9 Talents are:</p><p>Strength</p><p>Agility</p><p>Endurance</p><p>Intelligence</p><p>Wisdom</p><p>Willpower</p><p>Charisma</p><p>Intuition</p><p>Luck</p><p></p><p>And the four Energies are Composure, Mana, Stamina, and Acuity. </p><p></p><p>Luck is the only oddball, not having any skills associated with it. Its progression is instead tied up in the Birthsign mechanics.</p><p></p><p>4. So in general the only hard requisite in place is that you can't skip ahead in Ability chains; you have to buy them in sequence. Each Ability/Perk however may have its effectiveness be based on one of your Skills, either through gating base effectiveness to a specific Skill level, and/or by making its effects input random (Thresholds). </p><p></p><p>For example, the Barbarian has an ability called Slam!. This lets them instantaneously grapple and/or toss their target under the right conditions. Who they can do this to is gated by their Wrestling skill (max it out to throw basically <em>any</em> creature, no questions asked), and it also defines a looser Threshold, as the distance of the Toss (and any damage it can cause) is gated by your Strength Talent, which Wrestling falls under. </p><p></p><p>The Ranger, however, has an unnamed ability that basically lets them stick their ear to the ground to track and identify foes at a distance (Aragorn stuff). This naturally keys off the Tracking skill, and so its effectiveness has a Threshold depending on your Skill check; higher results get more out of the Ability. If you have a reason to use this during Combat, you'd use a Skill Action to use it, which means you take one of the d20s you rolled at the beginning of the Round (representing one of two Actions) and what it rolled is what you're saying you rolled for the Ability. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Indeed, it is a conundrum. Generally its going to depend on where your adventures take you; you should spec into stuff that helps you succeed at what you're getting up to. But its also true that you're not meant to be able to perfectly optimize; its unsolvable intentionally. </p><p></p><p>But, because of the Skill reqs and Thresholds, this is also going to guide and reinforce a given playstyle. The mentioned Barbarian is all about being a big bruiser and position controller, and so the Skills and Perks you'd focus on, if you're concerned about Combat, would naturally play into that, not just because being a peak Barbarian asks you to focus on them, but also because they'd intuitively complement that playstyle. </p><p></p><p>But for those who want to go their own way, while they're obligate to still hit those synergies if they want maximal effectiveness, they're not held back from branching out into other ideas, and Class design plays into that, with some Ability chains giving you the option to swap which Talents count towards which Energies, which in turn means you can focus on a whole other set of possible Skills. </p><p></p><p>For example, the Barbarian has a base ability called Yawp!, which is basically a shouting ability that lets them disrupt Spells and stun their enemies, amongst other things, which comes from the Sword/Sorcery trope of barbarians always fighting against enemy mages. As part of it, you gain the ability to swap in your Willpower to calculate your Stamina, over either Strength or Agility. </p><p></p><p>This does a number of things. One, it lets you more easily spec into being really beefy, as Willpower is one of the Talents that calculates your Composure. And for two, if opens you up to focus on Willpower skills, which in turn synergize with what else Barbarians can do. Leadership is a Willpower skill, for example, and this handily synergizes with both the base Barbarian Horde you get access to as part of your core Outlander ability chain, but also with the subclass Honorbound, that further develops that and pushes the Barbarian towards a sort of Genghis Khan sort of role. </p><p></p><p>Ultimately, character progression is just one part of how you go about the game. It isn't the whole game, and so you need to diversify your concerns, and get out there and adventure. A lot of whats going to make a given character work needs you to actually play the game, essentially. </p><p></p><p>Plus, another angle to consider is that I treat Perks as, well, Perks. They exist to diversify your capabilities and elaborate on them, but they aren't necessarily required to simply display competance. Thats why Improvise Action is front and center, as thats where your competance lies across the vast bulk of potential tasks or problems to resolve. </p><p></p><p>For example, the Perk Analyze under Tactics codifies a Skill Action you can use in Combat to analyze your opponents for weaknesses and vulnerabilities. </p><p></p><p>However, you don't actually need to take the Perk to do this. You can Improvise instead, and if you want the specific mechanical effects the perk provides, it'd define the DCs for you to hit (its a step up in difficulty whenver you use IA like that; so if a Vulnerability needs a 20 to be identified by Analyze, you have to hit 25 instead)</p><p></p><p>The benefit of taking Analyze, aside from the easier difficulty, is that it gives you a no questions asked button to utilize, and provided additional, passive benefits you can't Improvise into getting (because they aren't Actions <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" alt="🙃" title="Upside-down face :upside_down:" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f643.png" data-shortname=":upside_down:" />). Analyze lets you passively use your Willpower modifier as an Acuity boost in social interactions and warfare. </p><p></p><p>In social that means you're better able to influence people, and in warfare it gives you a pretty substantive Passive Perception boost, whilst also establishing a floor for it; at +30 Willpower, you'll always percieve anything at DC30 or lower, even if your Acuity has been wrecked by some ailment. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Naturally there's limits to what my hyperbole realistically meant lol. By cheated, I meant things like just saying you took a Perk when you weren't actually able to. You can't cheat the Stats themselves, as part of the games overall design requires that WKs maintain a track of all 9 Talents for each Player, which is important to keep gameplay smooth. </p><p></p><p>But you could cheat the Perks, and it wouldn't matter too much unless you push it and make it too obvious you've taken stuff you shouldn't have. The mechanical benefits are either too miniscule to make a difference or are gated by monitored values.</p><p></p><p>This is ultimately why Perks don't count against any sort of limit or prevent you from building up your Class or Stats. You take them when you're reasonably satisfied with the other two areas and want to diversify. </p><p></p><p>I won't say its perfect though. The overall Character progression system is still in a state of design uncertainty, as I'm currently focused on the core gameplay loops. (I actually just resolved a <em>massive</em> design problem I was having there, but thats a whole other topic lol)</p><p></p><p>I actually have a nagging suspicion I might just skip Skill perks entirely. They'd still be there, they'd just be level gated abilities you unlock as you increase your Skills. That'd just leave Bloodlines and Professions as stuff you need to spend on, which is more straightforward.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Emberashh, post: 9209912, member: 7040941"] I can see why you'd assume, but I don't see any reason to restrict that. There's no real incentive to sit on them aside from the cost reqs for multiclassing, and theres the drawback of preventing yourself from using whatever skill increase or Perk you could have had in the meantime. Dragonbane. Ie, mark usage and roll to confirm. 1. I'm incorporating a more fully realized version of what, IIRC, Dungeon World did with racial class abilities. There are 6 Class archtypes (Martials, Mages, Summoners, Mystics, Divine, Nature) and each Bloodline will have 6 different "Ability Chains", which are a group of 6 Abilities in succession, which correspond to each one. You automatically unlock the chains by taking one of the requisite Class types, and you'd spend 6SPs to max out the chain in order. This goes to 12 on a second, and so on. Same MC costs apply. Professions, as I have them now, however work like a secondary, hybridized Skill & Class system; you have a free selection over what Perks you take within them, and every one taken raises the Profession's rank, which in turn empowers the perks within and confers its own benefits, many of which will pay dividends in the Domain system. (This where Im supporting the idea that the Party could swear off adventuring and just be legendary Bakers) Then, if you want to go for multiple Professions, the same MC costs apply. A Chef profession, for example, would naturally empower Cooking, much moreso than the base Survival skill does, and if you commit to it you can use it to form the basis of a Restaurant type Domain (ala Bakers), which can then be combined with other Player's Professions (Hunters, Merchants, Servants, etc) to form an Alliance (party) that runs that Domain as a Business. This latter part is conceptual at this stage, no real concrete mechanics to speak of yet, but this is the direction its going in. 2. Yep you got it. 3. Yes, Talents are a basically a combination of Skill modifiers and Ability scores. Each Talent, such as Strength or Intuition, has 4 Skills associated with it. The average of the 4 Skills = your Talent Modifier, which is used to modify any Skill checks made, but also any raw Talent checks that might be called for. Each Talent then gets averaged together in specific combinations to form your Energies. The 9 Talents are: Strength Agility Endurance Intelligence Wisdom Willpower Charisma Intuition Luck And the four Energies are Composure, Mana, Stamina, and Acuity. Luck is the only oddball, not having any skills associated with it. Its progression is instead tied up in the Birthsign mechanics. 4. So in general the only hard requisite in place is that you can't skip ahead in Ability chains; you have to buy them in sequence. Each Ability/Perk however may have its effectiveness be based on one of your Skills, either through gating base effectiveness to a specific Skill level, and/or by making its effects input random (Thresholds). For example, the Barbarian has an ability called Slam!. This lets them instantaneously grapple and/or toss their target under the right conditions. Who they can do this to is gated by their Wrestling skill (max it out to throw basically [I]any[/I] creature, no questions asked), and it also defines a looser Threshold, as the distance of the Toss (and any damage it can cause) is gated by your Strength Talent, which Wrestling falls under. The Ranger, however, has an unnamed ability that basically lets them stick their ear to the ground to track and identify foes at a distance (Aragorn stuff). This naturally keys off the Tracking skill, and so its effectiveness has a Threshold depending on your Skill check; higher results get more out of the Ability. If you have a reason to use this during Combat, you'd use a Skill Action to use it, which means you take one of the d20s you rolled at the beginning of the Round (representing one of two Actions) and what it rolled is what you're saying you rolled for the Ability. Indeed, it is a conundrum. Generally its going to depend on where your adventures take you; you should spec into stuff that helps you succeed at what you're getting up to. But its also true that you're not meant to be able to perfectly optimize; its unsolvable intentionally. But, because of the Skill reqs and Thresholds, this is also going to guide and reinforce a given playstyle. The mentioned Barbarian is all about being a big bruiser and position controller, and so the Skills and Perks you'd focus on, if you're concerned about Combat, would naturally play into that, not just because being a peak Barbarian asks you to focus on them, but also because they'd intuitively complement that playstyle. But for those who want to go their own way, while they're obligate to still hit those synergies if they want maximal effectiveness, they're not held back from branching out into other ideas, and Class design plays into that, with some Ability chains giving you the option to swap which Talents count towards which Energies, which in turn means you can focus on a whole other set of possible Skills. For example, the Barbarian has a base ability called Yawp!, which is basically a shouting ability that lets them disrupt Spells and stun their enemies, amongst other things, which comes from the Sword/Sorcery trope of barbarians always fighting against enemy mages. As part of it, you gain the ability to swap in your Willpower to calculate your Stamina, over either Strength or Agility. This does a number of things. One, it lets you more easily spec into being really beefy, as Willpower is one of the Talents that calculates your Composure. And for two, if opens you up to focus on Willpower skills, which in turn synergize with what else Barbarians can do. Leadership is a Willpower skill, for example, and this handily synergizes with both the base Barbarian Horde you get access to as part of your core Outlander ability chain, but also with the subclass Honorbound, that further develops that and pushes the Barbarian towards a sort of Genghis Khan sort of role. Ultimately, character progression is just one part of how you go about the game. It isn't the whole game, and so you need to diversify your concerns, and get out there and adventure. A lot of whats going to make a given character work needs you to actually play the game, essentially. Plus, another angle to consider is that I treat Perks as, well, Perks. They exist to diversify your capabilities and elaborate on them, but they aren't necessarily required to simply display competance. Thats why Improvise Action is front and center, as thats where your competance lies across the vast bulk of potential tasks or problems to resolve. For example, the Perk Analyze under Tactics codifies a Skill Action you can use in Combat to analyze your opponents for weaknesses and vulnerabilities. However, you don't actually need to take the Perk to do this. You can Improvise instead, and if you want the specific mechanical effects the perk provides, it'd define the DCs for you to hit (its a step up in difficulty whenver you use IA like that; so if a Vulnerability needs a 20 to be identified by Analyze, you have to hit 25 instead) The benefit of taking Analyze, aside from the easier difficulty, is that it gives you a no questions asked button to utilize, and provided additional, passive benefits you can't Improvise into getting (because they aren't Actions 🙃). Analyze lets you passively use your Willpower modifier as an Acuity boost in social interactions and warfare. In social that means you're better able to influence people, and in warfare it gives you a pretty substantive Passive Perception boost, whilst also establishing a floor for it; at +30 Willpower, you'll always percieve anything at DC30 or lower, even if your Acuity has been wrecked by some ailment. Naturally there's limits to what my hyperbole realistically meant lol. By cheated, I meant things like just saying you took a Perk when you weren't actually able to. You can't cheat the Stats themselves, as part of the games overall design requires that WKs maintain a track of all 9 Talents for each Player, which is important to keep gameplay smooth. But you could cheat the Perks, and it wouldn't matter too much unless you push it and make it too obvious you've taken stuff you shouldn't have. The mechanical benefits are either too miniscule to make a difference or are gated by monitored values. This is ultimately why Perks don't count against any sort of limit or prevent you from building up your Class or Stats. You take them when you're reasonably satisfied with the other two areas and want to diversify. I won't say its perfect though. The overall Character progression system is still in a state of design uncertainty, as I'm currently focused on the core gameplay loops. (I actually just resolved a [I]massive[/I] design problem I was having there, but thats a whole other topic lol) I actually have a nagging suspicion I might just skip Skill perks entirely. They'd still be there, they'd just be level gated abilities you unlock as you increase your Skills. That'd just leave Bloodlines and Professions as stuff you need to spend on, which is more straightforward. [/QUOTE]
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