D&D 5E Best Way to Challenge this Sorcadin, without high level spells

[TiQuinn]

I agree 100% with you, but mechanically it's OK, and it's the same as all other dice manipulations abilities.

To be fair, I don't like a lot of other spells for this same reason. Guidance being a big one. It's not one I'd ever ban, but if it were to go bye-bye, I'd be 100% okay with it.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

This is the biggest reason I don't like Silvery Barbs. It doesn't support the emerging narrative at the table, in fact, it just serves to interrupt play. It's all mechanical effect - there's nothing inspiring about the spell itself, IMO.

In my only campaign as a player, my PC is a Chronurgy Wizard (Wildemount). I'm thinking of taking Silvery Barbs as it has a very similar effect as the Chronal Shift feature, which also forces a reroll. Seems a good flavor match for my character, allows him to "turn back time" to potentially foil an enemy attack and give some "divination" to an ally for advantage. And it costs a spell slot, so it is not without cost.

Doesn't seem any more disruptive than Shield (or, really, any other reaction spell or ability) to me. I dunno.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Anyone have any good recommendations on good traps, npcs, or monsters to use against this kind of character?

Fundamentally (IMO), what you need to do is be able to challenge each character's ability to contribute, not be able to take them out*. So the question becomes 'what does the paladin actually do?' From what we've heard, it sounds like the answer is 'survive really well, and grapple fairly well.' Neither of these actually accomplish the goals of the PCs, excepting that they need to be alive to do so.
*without having long ago taken everyone out. As the DM you can always take out the PCs.

Beyond survive, Sorcadins of the PC's level/distribution are known for some decent burst damage (using up the same spell slots needed to survive), and some mid-level healing/curatives. They can't cast knock, or spiderclimb, or see invisible, or have expertise in 4+ skills, or even dish out damage like a Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert/Archery FS battlemaster or the like. Sounds to me like there is plenty of opportunity for everyone else to leave the Sorcadin in the dust, contribution-wise, if you structure your adventures appropriately.

Even in combat, this character seems likely to be limited to dealing a lot of damage only in constrained situations (burst damage, but also melee, and without the fly spell). Throw up some difficult terrain, add in some other effects which reduce speed separately (Plant Growth and Spirit Guardians are out, but knockback/speed reduction effects and actual obstacles are still options). All of a sudden the sorcadin looks like a traffic pilon shooting 16-casting-stat firebolts while the above-mentioned archer is nearly unhindered and the monk or barbarian or heck any SAD character who has the ASIs free for things like mobility feat all are outperforming them.

I would be very hesitant to continue playing with a DM who thought "armored character + shield spell" warranted a conversation about banning.

Given how un-overpowered the Eldritch Knight is (particularly given how limited 1/3 spellcasting advancement ends up being, to say nothing of the school constraints), I agree on that front. Situations like wizards taking a 1-level dip into fighter/cleric/artificer for med/heavy armor and shield proficiency I am a lot more dubious over.

I'm not certain that balancing MUs by having them very powerful, but very fragile worked perfectly pretty much any time past 1974 (or at the very least it zigged and zagged in effectiveness with every supplement and edition/version). That said, if you are going to include it in the play balance, being able to ameliorate so much of it with as minor an expenditure is noteworthy. It isn't the reason for the wizard supremacy perceptions, but it certainly doesn't help.

Sorcadins are kinda halfway between. If you think of them as borderline broken, then the heavy armor and shields and shield is certainly part of it. Personally, I think they are kind of paper tigers* -- they sure sound good, and look good on paper -- but when you line them up against a pure** paladin or sorcerer (or fighter and wizard). There seems to be a lot of stretches where you are waiting for next level and your combo to finally kick in while they have multiple attacks or 3rd level spells or such.
*particularly when in campaigns when other options are not as constrained as this 2nd-level-spell ceiling.
**or possibly 1-level dips and the like.

 

[Clint_L]

I don't see a big issue with Silvery Barbs. It is not nearly as powerful or game-breaking as other 1st level spells, Shield in particular.

I will say it is disruptive in play, and for that reason I don't see it much any more. IME most players avoid it. When I do see it today, it is usually on Bards who can't get Shield.

Most players I play with won't take that as a spell because of how it slows down combat, but if they do take it, that means they want it and if they want it, why ban it?

Same with Guidance. I will say with Guidance I do pay attention to RAW. It is an action and it is concentration. So if the Rogue says I pick the lock on the chest, and the Cleric follows with "I cast Guidance", well the Rogue spoke first so he rolls his ability check without the guidance. Then he has it and can use it on a future check. Then whatever the Cleric was already concentrating on goes down and it is fairly often it takes down a Shield of Faith or Protection from Good and Evil or Spirit Guardians. Once it ended a Summon Celestial before the party was even in a single fight.

I think too many DMs play Guidance like a reaction and they ignore the concentration part of it that cancels other concentration spells.

I think guidance depends on the situation. If the player declares an action that is immediate, then yeah, it's too late for guidance. For instance, "I attempt to leap up and grab the lever." Too late; should have planned that in advance. But if it's an action that takes some time, or the player is stating their intent, then it's a different story: "I'm investigating the room," or "I'm searching through the arcane tome." In those situations, I think it makes sense for the cleric (or whoever) to respond with "can I give you guidance?"

Completely agree about players forgetting that it's a concentration spell. I forget that myself, all the time!

 

[Quickleaf]

@Stalker0 I'm wondering what suggestions here have "landed" for you and you're considering deploying? Or have already used?

 

[Stalker0]

Beyond survive, Sorcadins of the PC's level/distribution are known for some decent burst damage (using up the same spell slots needed to survive), and some mid-level healing/curatives. They can't cast knock, or spiderclimb, or see invisible, or have expertise in 4+ skills, or even dish out damage like a Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert/Archery FS battlemaster or the like. Sounds to me like there is plenty of opportunity for everyone else to leave the Sorcadin in the dust, contribution-wise, if you structure your adventures appropriately.

I think part of the issue to is that this player is very good at optimizing compared to many of the others. And so its not just that they are the tankiest (that alone wouldn't be the end of the world).

They also do high damage, and their grapples give them a ton of control. (they also have +10 speed as a glory paladin so being able to move a creature 20 feet is actually very useful).

Now I don't need to "take them out" or "make them pay" or anything. I just want to ensure I am giving them fair treatment with everyone else. If fight X really challenges the rogue and warlock, I want to ensure this sorcadin has a fight that leaves them sweating as well. The problem is right now that the sorcadin is kind of skating through the encounters but the other players are feeling legitimately challenged.

Its also why the notion of "just ignore the tank" isn't really going to help. If the solution to the problem is "beat up the other players more in combat", thats not really solving the problem

 

[Stalker0]

@Stalker0 I'm wondering what suggestions here have "landed" for you and you're considering deploying? Or have already used?

I've tried the "crowd them out with minions" idea but they have kinetic jaunt and so can just move out of that when they need to.

The two immediate ones were using cloud of daggers and heat metal. Both of those are easy to deploy, and I don't have to worry about paladin saves. Seems very easy to slip in to a combat

I did doublecheck their spellslots (I realized I had done some multiclass villains wrong so I appreciated the note), but it looks like they were good just I had overestimated how many they had in their head.

 

[TheSword]

I would be very hesitant to continue playing with a DM who thought "armored character + shield spell" warranted a conversation about banning.

Lucky for both of us then

Though AC22 isn’t just armoured it’s heavily armoured. Fully customized to maximize AC with class choices, weapon load out and magic items. So I stand by my point.

 

[TheSword]

Says PHB, not me.

good to know, so only AC19 characters are viable in your campaign?


does that apply to regular shields also?

shield only works with light and medium armor and not with heavy?

what about warforged or forge clerics or artificers?

Adding +5 AC to all attacks for a round is huge. Big difference between that and a mundane +2 AC shield. Even more so considering you’re giving up a hand and reducing damage to carry it.

I don’t have a problem with AC 22 characters. Currently up to level 18 in Age of Worms. Paladin is AC 21, Cleric is AC 22. No problem. I would have a problem if they were boosting it to 26 or 27.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

Want to really challenge them? Give them an escort quest.

evil grin