No More Massive Tomes of Rules

[Reynard]

After sitting down and reading through the Dragonbane rulebook last night, I have realized that I just don't want to pour through 1000 pages of rules to run/play D&D anymore. Therer is no reason that 5E (or any other edition for that matter) can't be presented in a concise, complete, robust form like Dragonbane.

Do you like games in "long form" -- by that I mean the multiple rulebook, dense prose form common in the industry and exemplified by D&D and Pathfinder? Do you prefer a singular book but of the same form, like we usually get from Free League and Modiphius? Or do you like short and concise books?

I think Shadowdark is a nice compromise for me: the rulebook is 300 pages, but also A5 sized, and much of it is inspirational tables. The actual rules could easily fit in 100 pages.

I may revive a project I was working on during the pandemic: 5E in 100 pages. Not a deeply cut "basic" version in 100 pages, but an honest to goodness full version of 5E from the SRD in 100 pages.

 

[TwoSix]

For most new games I look at, I’m not nearly as concerned about my preferences as I am with the game having a strong “sell this to the players” concept. I want something with a small section of pages I can show to the players saying “Here are your options” that has an upfront easy to understand presentation.

 

[Wolfpack48]

The bulk of these rulebooks seem to be taken up with detailed writeups of character abilities, skills, spells, monsters -- the core rules are always pretty small, but the books get big when they bring all this detail to a single tome. I liked RQ3's approach of doing slimmer pamphlets for each of these things.

 

[payn]

I dont even use physical books anymore so I really dont notice length. My test is at the table. If an occasional reference check is necessary (after a few rounds of learning the game of course) that seems about right to me.

 

[Maggan]

I have played "smaller" games for a while now. Last "big" game I ran was Pathfinder 1 (Kingmaker adventure path). After that I've ran Forbidden Lands and Pirate Borg. And Dragonbane, of course. Our group has also tried OSE, Alien, Vaesen during the time span it took us to play Hoard of the Dragon Queen.

So I enjoy the smaller formats since it makes it easier for me to try new games without investing too much time into learning the rules.

 

[Autumnal]

I may revive a project I was working on during the pandemic: 5E in 100 pages. Not a deeply cut "basic" version in 100 pages, but an honest to goodness full version of 5E from the SRD in 100 pages.

I would buy that. I’d buy it even more if it came in however many more pages the same content needs for digest size, and epub. But even at standard size, thst would make me happy.

 

[Retreater]

They work different parts of my brain.
A robust, well-detailed system such as Pathfinder 2e or D&D 4E doesn't leave much to DM or player fiat. You know your abilities. You know what is required for certain actions. As someone creating the game, you should have a good handle on awarding treasure and designing encounters. But you spend more time instead of being creative, looking at +1s and looking up the precise wording on Daily Powers.
Other systems, such ones in the OSR, allow for more freedom from design and put more control in the DM's hands. This means that the responsibility of the game is completely on you. In many cases, even the class design and core chassis of the system is flawed. (Take a look at the OSE thief. It's terrible.) If you give out an imbalanced magic item, you have to adjust all future adventures for that item - or find a way to take it from the character.
Apart from the occasional one-shot, I've been running PF2 (~2 years) and D&D4E (~6 months). It's getting exhausting. After an extended break, I probably need to try a rules-lite system. However, in my experience, "rules-lite" evokes rules lawyers, complaints about favoritism between players, stressing about encounter and reward balance, and less material to "dig into" for pleasure reading.
Long story short (too late!), I'd say there isn't one better or worse for me - except if we go for a "happy medium" (5E? Savage Worlds?) which is something I almost always dislike because it doesn't offer the benefit of either approach while offering all the drawbacks.

 

[Reynard]

They work different parts of my brain.
A robust, well-detailed system such as Pathfinder 2e or D&D 4E doesn't leave much to DM or player fiat. You know your abilities. You know what is required for certain actions. As someone creating the game, you should have a good handle on awarding treasure and designing encounters. But you spend more time instead of being creative, looking at +1s and looking up the precise wording on Daily Powers.
Other systems, such ones in the OSR, allow for more freedom from design and put more control in the DM's hands. This means that the responsibility of the game is completely on you. In many cases, even the class design and core chassis of the system is flawed. (Take a look at the OSE thief. It's terrible.) If you give out an imbalanced magic item, you have to adjust all future adventures for that item - or find a way to take it from the character.
Apart from the occasional one-shot, I've been running PF2 (~2 years) and D&D4E (~6 months). It's getting exhausting. After an extended break, I probably need to try a rules-lite system. However, in my experience, "rules-lite" evokes rules lawyers, complaints about favoritism between players, stressing about encounter and reward balance, and less material to "dig into" for pleasure reading.
Long story short (too late!), I'd say there isn't one better or worse for me - except if we go for a "happy medium" (5E? Savage Worlds?) which is something I almost always dislike because it doesn't offer the benefit of either approach while offering all the drawbacks.

I think you are conflating length with tight design, and I don't think they are inherently linked.

 

[Retreater]

I think you are conflating length with tight design, and I don't think they are inherently linked.

But in my experience, having a rule for "everything (which is likely to come up in the course of a session)" does attribute to length. If you don't have a rule there - you have to make a ruling (or search "X formerly Twitter" to see if Chris Perkins has written about it) - that ruling will likely create arguments, disagreements, and you'll have to remember it for the sake of future consistency ... in which case you'd be better off just having the rule in a 400+ page book.
If I see a ruleset that is very short and considered tightly designed, I will assume it is a very limited concept game - not something that can handle multiple 20-level campaigns over a decade of play.

 

[kenada]

I prefer A5-sized books, but digest is fine if the alternative is a traditionally larger size. In terms of page count, I want something succinct and easy to read and use. I don’t want totally dry text. While OSE is easy to ingest, it’s a pretty bland read.

In terms of organization, I’d like to see a player-focused core with the rest layered on top (possibly as separate books). That’s my target for my homebrew system (ideally less than 16 pages A5 for the core), but I won’t know until I start translating notes to text.