D&D 4E 4E boon or bust for Old School support?

With the coming of 4E, and some sort of open license in the works, it seems like alot of the small publishers we old schoolers depend on for the occasional 1E compatable module may need to completely switch over to 4E. Will this spell the death of the old school revival (or perhaps will this some how increase demand in some strange twist of fait)? I mean, if your a publisher and have to put your efforts somewhere it seems more logical to go for the one that will reward you with greater profits. Certainly 1E support has been primarily a side line for companies who make their bread and butter in the D20 market; and then there's going to be the demand for new 3E modules for those who don't move on to 4E (a larger group by far then 1E players, further shrinking the pot).

It just doesn't look good for us 1Eers. But then, who knows.

Valiant said:

With the coming of 4E, and some sort of open license in the works, it seems like alot of the small publishers we old schoolers depend on for the occasional 1E compatable module may need to completely switch over to 4E. Will this spell the death of the old school revival (or perhaps will this some how increase demand in some strange twist of fait)? I mean, if your a publisher and have to put your efforts somewhere it seems more logical to go for the one that will reward you with greater profits. Certainly 1E support has been primarily a side line for companies who make their bread and butter in the D20 market; and then there's going to be the demand for new 3E modules for those who don't move on to 4E (a larger group by far then 1E players, further shrinking the pot).

It just doesn't look good for us 1Eers. But then, who knows.

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I don't think so. it is a small market to begin with. In addiiton, it looks like 4E is going to be far enough removed from the tone and playstyle of "old skool" D&D that some people, like me, are finally ready to stop trying to force the current version of D&D to be the old version and are instead just dusting off their old books, dowloading OSRIC or hitting ebay. If a couple well known publishers really stepped up to the plate -- Goodman, Troll Lord and/or Kenzer seem like good candidates -- and created a fully supported "1E" line, I think it would be successful (at least enough to keep it alive).

With the coming of 4E, and some sort of open license in the works, it seems like alot of the small publishers we old schoolers depend on for the occasional 1E compatable module may need to completely switch over to 4E.

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I don't think that's true. Their 3E material moves to 4E, sure, but why does that mean they'd have to stop publishing the occasional 1E module? As far as 1E modules go, it's basically the same situation, regardless of the bread-and-butter being 3E or 4E. If the 1E modules sell, they'll keep publishing them. If they don't sell and bring the company a loss, they won't.

The real question is whether or not the 1E market is sustainable. That is, are there enough people willing to shell out the bucks for 1E products. I think there are enough people playing the older editions (including systems like C&C and BFRPG, which could use 1E adventures easily), but will they buy? Price is an issue. Since we're talking a niche market, print runs are small, which means prices are higher -- especially if you keep production standards pretty high (e.g. stiff, glossy, color covers, professional art, et cetera). And if price stops people from buying, print runs won't get any bigger.

Reynard said:

If a couple well known publishers really stepped up to the plate -- Goodman, Troll Lord and/or Kenzer seem like good candidates -- and created a fully supported "1E" line, I think it would be successful (at least enough to keep it alive).

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I don't think the Troll Lords would do this; they've got C&C, and I expect they'll stick with producing C&C material, which can be pretty easily used with 1E, anyway (although there are some differences in approach that divide the 1E and C&C fan-bases).

I'd like to see Goodman doing this on a bigger scale. What I don't want to see is "just swap out the stat" conversions, though. I think that fails to consider the differences between the d20 and 1E approaches. That said, everything I've heard about the latest Goodman conversion is good: it sounds like Jon Herschberger is doing a good job making the 1E conversions into modules that use 1E approaches and philosophies. (My copy of Saga of the Witch Queen is on order, but I haven't received it, yet.)

I don't know about Kenzer. I'd expect to see Hackmaster stuff from them.

Another thought, publishers wanting a crack at a 4E license may not want to antagonize the lion WOTC by supporting the AD&D market. Without WOTCs blessing they might find it not worth the risk. Just a thought. :\


Q -If a couple well known publishers really stepped up to the plate -- Goodman, Troll Lord and/or Kenzer seem like good candidates -- and created a fully supported "1E" line, I think it would be successful (at least enough to keep it alive).-

I have always believed this as well, and one has to wonder why they haven't. For instance, TLG could easily adopt OSRIC if they wanted to (as a side along to C&C; afterall OSRIC = AD&D, C&C does not, its its own hybrid generally seen by most as D20 light, despite its convertability). With Gygax in their pocket they should be all over it (afterall it would be like Coke also owning Pepsi, they'd be competing with themselves. My only guess why they (and others like Goodman and PPP) don't use it is because they don't want to build a brand they don't control (they can't license it afterall).

The rumors going around that some of these companies were steered away from using OSRIC for legal reasons is hogwash IMHO, that arguement doesn't hold any water.

OSRIC itself could be challanged (unlikely as the owner lives in the UK), but anyone can slap the word OSRIC on the cover of their modules and still be 100% compliant to WOTCs OGL. And if some publisher needs to mention something thats grey area, its simple enough to give a reference page number from the OSRIC document.

If anything, I think the "old school" industries general bashing of OSRIC has hurt them far more then they realize by alienating their base (who, I think, strongly supports what OSRIC is doing). Perhaps in time we will drag them into using OSRIC, kicking and screaming.

Valiant said:

Another thought, publishers wanting a crack at a 4E license may not want to antagonize the lion WOTC by supporting the AD&D market. Without WOTCs blessing they might find it not worth the risk. Just a thought.

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I don't know. I think WotC has been pretty reasonable, as long as you respect their IP. They have a reputation for playing fair and being generous with third-party companies who talk to them (e.g. asking permission to use non-SRD monsters, et cetera).

I doubt that WotC is threatened by the 1E market. It's small, for one. And the draws of the 1E market are not really the same as the draws for the 4E market; I'm sure WotC is confident that it's products (4E) will be able to draw customers. Lastly, WotC still owns all the older-edition IP, and still makes some (probably negligible) money selling the PDFs. I would expect them to leave a small niche market like the 1E alone: it doesn't really threaten them, and it brings in a trickle of money with no real effort on their part. And if it REALLY took off, they could dust off that IP and reprint core books, et cetera. As long as everybody plays by the rules (e.g. not threatening their trademarks, not infringing their copyrights, etc.), I would expect WotC to be benevolent.

Reynard said:

In addiiton, it looks like 4E is going to be far enough removed from the tone and playstyle of "old skool" D&D that some people, like me, are finally ready to stop trying to force the current version of D&D to be the old version and are instead just dusting off their old books, dowloading OSRIC or hitting ebay.

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Certainly there's some anecdotal evidence that suggests this is happening. This similar to my case, actually, although it wasn't 4E that prompted me to make the switch to older editions -- it was a more gradual process, for me.

Making that last jump to the older editions felt good (and strangely liberating). It was where I wanted to be all along; it's strange that it took me so long to realize it.

Valiant said:

Q -If a couple well known publishers really stepped up to the plate -- Goodman, Troll Lord and/or Kenzer seem like good candidates -- and created a fully supported "1E" line, I think it would be successful (at least enough to keep it alive).-

I have always believed this as well, and one has to wonder why they haven't.

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My theory is that they haven't done it because they have looked at the idea and weighed it against the commercial prospects of such a venture, and found that it wouldn't be successful compared to the resources needed to pull it off.

Basically, if the best players aren't doing it, there are probably pretty strong reasons why they don't.

/M

C&C's core players are really the guys wanting a game like 3E but not as complicated. They also have a respect for D&Ds past (thats why they have Gygax). But there really not focused on 1E.

Valiant said:

Q -If a couple well known publishers really stepped up to the plate -- Goodman, Troll Lord and/or Kenzer seem like good candidates -- and created a fully supported "1E" line, I think it would be successful (at least enough to keep it alive).-

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I kind of doubt this. While there seem to be plenty of 1e gamers still out there each time I see threads on the new 1e stuff there are gamers proclaiming they play 1e and not wanting to support the new stuff. I'll have to ask some friends who do currently publish 1e modules how it is going for them.