OK, I've made a preliminary update. Needs tweaking, but the basic concept is there!
What determines when the movement turn is completed? You say a ship must move its current speed each round, but its speed might change during the round. For example, a ship is flying at speed 12, slows down to 3 and then moves 3 hexes. Is the movement turn over? In other words, it sounds like the ship can adjust speed, then move (including turns), then adjust speed (if there are any speed points left).
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What determines when the movement turn is completed? You say a ship must move its current speed each round, but its speed might change during the round. For example, a ship is flying at speed 12, slows down to 3 and then moves 3 hexes. Is the movement turn over? In other words, it sounds like the ship can adjust speed, then move (including turns), then adjust speed (if there are any speed points left).
Excellent point! The only way I can see it working is one velocity change per round, at a predefined point (either beginning or end of round). You can change your velocity by as much as you have speed points, but only the once.
Excellent point! The only way I can see it working is one velocity change per round, at a predefined point (either beginning or end of round). You can change your velocity by as much as you have speed points, but only the once.
Straightforward and you can still do most trajectories, so long as you can make multiple turns per round. Allowing speed changes at the beginning and end of the turn, however, would prevent wasted, unspent speed points, which could prevent less maneuverable ships from flying off the map!
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Clarify the terms you use in the Movement Section. It reads a little confusing at times, since sometimes you say "Current Speed" but I assume you mean "Velocity".
I would try to clarify the times:
- Velocity: The number of hexes you move this round.
- Speed: (Maybe a different name is required): The amount hexes you can use to change your velocity or direction.
- Direction: The direction of your velocity, e.g. the direction you are moving toward. ??? (I don't know if this should be its own term, or be named differently.
- Maneuverability: The number of speed points it costs you to change your direction by 60 degrees. Your current Velocity divided by your Maneuverability determines the number of hexes the ship must move before making its next 60 degree turn.
...
Oh, wait a moment? Is it intended that a ship with a low maneuverability score can turn very often (it costs very little speed) but it has to move very far before it can turn? Either I am reading it wrong or something is wrong.
A ship with speed 8 and maneuverability 1 could perform 8 turns, except at velocity, say, 12, it can turn effectively only once, since it can turn only every 12 / 1 = 12 hexes?
EDIT:
Oh wait, I think I am getting confused. The freighter example has 3 values - speed points, turn cost and maneuverability, but the sample ship at the start omits one value...
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Last edited by Mustrum_Ridcully; 15th June 2009 at 11:33 AM..
The example ships don't have those values yet, because I still want to reduce the three values to only two.
Other updates in the latest version include explosions, a slight alteration to the Hero section, and an introductory background section detailing the factions. I haven't yet updated the example ships to reflect the factions.
The example ships don't have those values yet, because I still want to reduce the three values to only two.
Other updates in the latest version include explosions, a slight alteration to the Hero section, and an introductory background section detailing the factions. I haven't yet updated the example ships to reflect the factions.
Hmm. Maybe you don't need to set a movement cost for changing turns, just the "divider" the ship uses? Effectively you just say how many turns a ship can make per round that way.
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The example ships don't have those values yet, because I still want to reduce the three values to only two.
Other updates in the latest version include explosions, a slight alteration to the Hero section, and an introductory background section detailing the factions. I haven't yet updated the example ships to reflect the factions.
Is it redundant to have both a Maneuverability score and a cost associated with turning? Presumably clumsy ships will have both a low Maneuverability score and a high cost associated with turning, so it seems like such a ship is being penalized twice. IMHO, it seems like you could get away with one or the other.
In any case, it also seems that there should either be a standard number of speed points, with costs for changing speed/heading varying from ship to ship; or a standard cost for changing speed/heading, with speed points varying from ship to ship. The second option means you only have one number per ship. Determining all three for each ship seems redundant.
Is there no longer a max speed? If you want one and you went with the second option above, you could make max speed = speed points for simplicity and so that your speed points have a physical meaning: the speed a ship can achieve, starting from rest, in the span of one turn.
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Last edited by Flatus Maximus; 15th June 2009 at 03:43 PM..
A danger regarding a model where inertia is returned - at least one I think might crop up - is that participants move very far on the battlegrid, and the distances might be too far for the typical map...
Just think of when you play Asteroids - how easy it is to become too quick and go over the borders...
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Is it redundant to have both a Maneuverability score and a cost associated with turning? Presumably clumsy ships will have both a low Maneuverability score and a high cost associated with turning, so it seems like such a ship is being penalized twice. IMHO, it seems like you could get away with one or the other.
Yes; that's why I keep saying that! I want to combine those two numbers.
The problem, as alluded to above, it that one of them is higher=better and the other is lower=better given the way they need to be used.
Quote:
Is there no longer a max speed? If you want one and you went with the second option above, you could make max speed = speed points for simplicity and so that your speed points have a physical meaning: the speed a ship can achieve, starting from rest, in the span of one turn.
Wavering on it. That's a fundamental design decision I need to make a call on.
Yes; that's why I keep saying that! I want to combine those two numbers.
It seems to me that the Maneuverability score obviates the need to combine the two numbers, but it sounds like you want the cost for turning to depend on the ship, right? Will the cost to speed up/down also depend on the ship? This approach, as opposed to having a flat cost for turning and speeding up/down, will be more complicated both in play and design.
For what it's worth, here's how I would define the terms:
Top Speed: The largest number of hexes the ship can move in one round.
Current Speed: The number of hexes the ship must move this round. (May be adjusted once, at the beginning of the round, before the ship actually moves.)
Current Location: The hex that the ship occupies.
Direction: The face of the Current Location hex that the ship must exit when initiating subsequent movement.
Maneuverability: Determines the number of hexes a ship must move before changing Direction by 60 degrees. (Example: A ship traveling with Current Speed=12 and Maneuverability=4 must move 3 hexes before changing Direction by 60 degrees.)
Speed Points: Points per round that can be spent to speed up/down. (Example: Speed Points=Top Speed, and speeding up/down by one hex costs one Speed Point, for simplicity.)
As you can see, there is no cost to change Direction, only to speed up/down. Two ships with different Maneuverability scores will, in general, have different turning radii (so the penalty for having a low Maneuverability score is here -- of course, such a ship can change Direction more rapidly by slowing down).
To keep physicists happy
Velocity: A datum that specifies both the Current Speed and Direction.
Edit: After considering what it would mean to have Maneuverability=1, I replaced "turning" with "change in Direction," since otherwise such a ship could never change Direction! Instead, such a ship may now move, then change Direction (new heading for the next turn).
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Last edited by Flatus Maximus; 15th June 2009 at 09:41 PM..
Reason: clarifications
Overall, extremely pleased. We learned a lot about the system's strengths and weaknesses, and found the experience was clearly one of a game that's headed in the right direction.
Movement rules simulated movement how we wanted to perfectly, at a cost of being a little awkward to implement. Clearly the design goal of "fast play/ease of use" was not being met there, but we were delighted with how the various sized ships acted and the difference between fighters, mid-ized ships and massive capital ships.
Some of the ships were not well designed - that was fine, as they were just numbers thrown onto a template to see how the system "looked". We adjusted them a lot in play.
Squadron rules need some work.
Some areas where clarification is needed were highlighted.
We fought a battle between a Star Destroyer (launching TIE Fighters) and the Enterprise, three squads of X-Wings and a Klingon Bird of Prey. Each felt and acted exactly how it should. The fighters raced out to meet each other as the larger ships closed more slowly; fighter squadrons streaked along the side of the Star Destroyer blasting at it, taking casualties from its point defences, and dueled in lovely parabolic arcs! One time I misjudged an X-Wing's speed, and it was unable to pull up in time to avoid colliding with an asteroid.
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Sounds like a lot of fun and looks like this is really coming along.
So, how big of a hex grid space did you use for the combats? Did you find yourselves overrunning the edge frequently?
9 pages printed out and taped together! A bit of a messy job, but I've ordered 12 poster sizes hex grids.
We overran the edge slightly once or twice (on the outside of some wide turns from the X Wings which were moving really fast), but not so that it bothered us. I imagine the game as being played on an area four times the size of the sheet we cobbled together (4 poster maps).
So how much does it cost to turn more than 60 degrees in one go? From my reading it sounds like that might be possible, but there is no associated cost. In any case, the game looks like a lot of fun!
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1) Firing arcs. It's easy with a one-hex ship, but a little more difficult with larger ships.
2) Damage locations. Remember how the X-Wings used to fly across the bow of a Star Destroyer firing at the shield generators? We want that type of visual. Our initial thoughts are that every ship has its own unique points that you can target, detailed in the stat block and marked on the counter itself. Each has an AC and HP, and notes on any additional defences it might have, along with details on what happens to the ship when that target point is destroyed. All exception-based (no overal governing damage chats, just specific weak points detailed in the stat block and marked on the counter). So I'm thinking something like this could appear on the Star Destroyer's card:
Shield Generators (x2)
AC 6, HP 20
Each generator destroyed reduces the ship's shield capability by half. Destroying both removes the ship's sensors capability.
Then two little red blobs on the counter show where they are.
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Last edited by Morrus; 16th June 2009 at 03:41 PM..
So how much does it cost to turn more than 60 degrees in one go? From my reading it sounds like that might be possible, but there is no associated cost. In any case, the game looks like a lot of fun!
You can't. You can turn 1 hex side (60 degrees) after x number of hexes moved in a straight line. With the last iteration, turning 60 degrees doesn't actually cost points - you can do it free as long as you do it every x hexes (as determined by your current velocity and your maneuverability).
Trust me, it works really well! Basically you get fighters circling and jockeying for position, or lining up for straight runs at capital ships, exactly how you'd imagine it. And asteroid fields become a LOT of fun!
If you have a ship capable of performing a special maneuver which allows it to do something else (e.g. check the Wingover maneuver on the Falcon, or the free Rotate manevers on the Starfuries and Vipers) it's specifically noted in the stat block.
1) Firing arcs. It's easy with a one-hex ship, but a little more difficult with larger ships.
What, exactly, is a 'firing arc'? A direction in which a given ship can fire? ("Arc" makes me think of curves.) Also: What was "awkward to implement" about the movement phase?
__________________ It's times like this I wish I had 500 foot bottle of tequila.
What, exactly, is a 'firing arc'? A direction in which a given ship can fire? ("Arc" makes me think of curves.)
Yup. Forward, Aft, Port, Starboard.
Quote:
Also: What was "awkward to implement" about the movement phase?
Too many numbers floating around. Velocity, speed points, maneuverability rating, cost to turn, hexes you have to move between each turn. Started to feel like I was back at school.
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