Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

Some folks I hear discussing this topic these days take the position that Gandalf is actually a paladin. Certainly "wizards" in Tolkien's works aren't the same magic-missile-throwing folks as in regular D&D; in fact there are only five wizards in the whole of Middle Earth - and at least one of them (the 7th Doctor) is very clearly a druid.

What do you think? Is Gandalf a 5th level magic-user? What about in 5th Edition, given the upcoming Middle Earth release? I'm sure Cubicle 7 will tells for certain this summer, but until then...

 

[ghostofchristmaspast]

This doesn't belong in 5th edition thread.

 

[Polyhedral_Columbia]

Bill is pretty much right, from the perspective of the D&D game system, as such.

But the D&D system and world is its own beast, which is amalgam of a bunch of different fantasy tropes (i.e. Appendix N). Some of the settings which are source material for the D&D Universe are filled with flashier magic, and so if we use the D&D Multiverse as a measuring stick, of course Middle-earth is "low magic."

Even the things which Gygax directly adapted from Tolkien are "translated", "tweaked", "gonzoified" (and even a bit "flattened") on their way into the D&D Multiverse.

It will be interesting to see how C7 does magic.

Just to point out two options:

1) One route would be to try to make the spell-casting system as similar to D&D as possible--even keeping the same spell levels, for cross-world compatibility's sake. This would result in what Bill Seligman describes. Basically a 7th- or 12th-level level cap.

2) Another route would be to make Middle-earth magic traditions completely different than magic in the D&D Multiverse. In this case, Middle-earth would cap out at the usual 20th level, but spell progression would be slower. The downside is that a 5e Middle-earth Magician would not be able to hold her own when playing in a cross-world D&D game.

 

[Morrus]

This doesn't belong in 5th edition thread.

It certainly does; it's prompted by the announcement of a 5E compatible Middle Earth. Plus, it's my website, which is always a bonus.

 

[Jabborwacky]

It certainly does; it's prompted by the announcement of a 5E compatible Middle Earth. Plus, it's my website, which is always a bonus.

If its D&D compatible, can we nickname it Middle Oerth?

Edit: This is of such incredible importance, I should make a forum poll for this! No, wait. I promised myself to avoid the crazy sauce for a while.

 

[Polyhedral_Columbia]

P.S. There is probably a 3rd way - of making a D&D Magician class which has enough class features (even non-magical features, such as drama-based abilities which effect the story) whereby it would stand up to an equivalent 20th-level D&D Wizard (or Sorcerer or Warlock), even though it has less flashy spells.

The non-magical classes such as Warrior, Burglar, and Ranger could also be equivalent in power to D&D Fighters, Rogues, Rangers all the way to 20th level. Though they would need to be re-flavored to match what the characters actually do in the stories. Even for these classes, the more gonzo non-magical abilities could be replaced with something more subtle.

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is King.

So in a very low magic setting, a 5th level caster is a big deal.

He's probably a Wizard 5/magic initiate (druid).

 

[TerraDave]

He was better in melee combat then a wizard would be. He must have 1 or 2 levels of fighter as well.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Some folks I hear discussing this topic these days take the position that Gandalf is actually a paladin.

I remember quite a bit of debate back in the day that Gandalf was a cleric in D&D terms!

(I always rather fancied the idea of Aragorn as a Paladin (even though he was the prototypical D&D ranger for sure).

 

[Tony Vargas]

A couple years ago I designed a faux Fellowship for a convention game using 1e, 3e & 4e rulesets. In the spirit of that old arcticle (or mocking it, perhaps) I made everyone 5th level ... sorta.

The Gandalf Clone, 'Vancegulf Mythreindeer' was:

1e: Human character-with-two-classes 9th level Fighter / 5th level Magic-User (yep, no experience anytime he drew his sword, 'Glamthing')
... oh, and psionic with enough psionic strength to pretty thoroughly smack down a Type VI demon in psionic combat.
But 'only' a 5th level magic-user - with a Staff of the Magi and Ring of Fire Elemental Command. ;P

3e: Half-Celestial 5th level Wizard, with the afore-mentioned magic items, of course. But 'only' a 5th level magic user - with a +5 LA template.

4e: Deva 5th level Wizard(Arcanist).