Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

Some folks I hear discussing this topic these days take the position that Gandalf is actually a paladin. Certainly "wizards" in Tolkien's works aren't the same magic-missile-throwing folks as in regular D&D; in fact there are only five wizards in the whole of Middle Earth - and at least one of them (the 7th Doctor) is very clearly a druid.

What do you think? Is Gandalf a 5th level magic-user? What about in 5th Edition, given the upcoming Middle Earth release? I'm sure Cubicle 7 will tells for certain this summer, but until then...

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The thing is that Gandalf technically has tremendous power but (except against the Balrog) is forbidden to use it. So I think it's accurate to say that (except for that one battle, where he throws lightning and stuff around for ages) he never does anything that a 5th level wizard couldn't do - but not that he actually is one.

Also, putting Sauron at 7th-8th level doesn't allow enough room for the power scale that exists between the characters.

That article was written back in the "name level" days when 9th-10th was very exceptional. Using that scale I'd suggest something like this...

Sauron - 15+ [he is overwhelmingly more powerful than any other being in Middle-Earth in the Third Age]
Gandalf/Saruman - 9 [but doesn't use most of it, as stated above]
Galadriel - 8
Elrond - 7
Aragorn - 7 [end of ROTK; 5-6 at the beginning of FOTR]
Boromir - 4
Frodo, Sam - 3 [end of ROTK; 1 at the beginning of FOTR]

For later editions, where levels tend to go higher, these should increase somewhat... for example...
Sauron - 21+ [only 'epic' character in the Third Age]
Gandalf/Saruman - 14
Aragorn - 11-12 [end; 8-9 at beginning]
and so on.
 

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LG Aasimar Lore Bard 13/ Paladin 2. Dual weilder feat [movie version] would be the closest approximation.

'Wizard' though is his title, not a statement of his class. Its the colloqual name for the 5 'Wizards' who entered ME to combat Sauron (one of whom is almost certainly a Druid, and the other most likely an Enchanment specialist).

Tolkien had this to say:

Wizard is a translation of Quenya istar (Sindarin ithron): one of the members of an "order" (as they call it), claiming to possess, and exhibiting, eminent knowledge of the history and nature of the World. The translation (through suitable in its relation to "wise" and other ancient words of knowing, similar to that of istar in Quenya) is not perhaps happy, since Heren Istarion or "Order of Wizards" was quite distinct from "wizards" and "magicians" of later legend; they belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.

From a mechanical standpoint, he is a Lore Bard. Expertise in persuasion, history, arcana, and insight. Cutting words and inspiration (he's famous for both - scolding people and spurring them into action; its noted in the apocryhpia that his main power was 'inspiring the fires in the hearts of men to action'. This power was amplified by the Elven ring of power he wore [Narya from memory]). He is also depicted as knowing a little bit of everything, and is even introduced into the story singing a song (he sings a few), often recites poetry and tidbits of ancient lore.

To your average inhabitant of ME, he's a mysterious 'Wizard'. To someone more knowledgable he is one of THE Wizards, an ancient order who live on ME. To anyone looking at his character sheet, he's a Lore Bard.

He can easily be fluffed from the movies and books as casting fireball [pinecones], lightning bolt [nazgul], light [moria], thaumaturgy [dont mistake me for a conjurer of cheap tricks!], shield [balrog], counterspell and telekinesis [battle with sauroman] summon animal [giant eagles], dispel magic [removing Saurons curse of Theoden] thunderwave [slamming his staff into the ground and knocking back foes], pyrotechnics [fireworks], arcane lock [magically locking the door in moria], detect magic [here is the magic door to Moria], several subtle and potent divination and enchantment effects, summon steed [shadowfax] and others.

He also has a few levels of Paladin. His divine sense allowed him to sense the Balrog before the others. He prefers to use his slots for divine smite [with Glamdring and his staff] instead of on overt shows of magical power.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
He was better in melee combat then a wizard would be. He must have 1 or 2 levels of fighter as well.

I think it's even talked about, at least off-handedly, that Gandalf actually isn't that great of a Wizard. But as people have pointed out, when everyone else is a level 1 or 2 fighter or rogue, then a level 5 wizard is a BFD.

@OP: Gandalf is hard to qualify, particularly when you realize that he's not even human. For all we know, Gandalf might have NO levels in anything, or maybe has a ton of levels in his racial class and just appears in human form. I mean, whats the level adjustment for being an angel these days?
 

Mike D

Explorer
I like to make the argument that in Middle-earth, there is actually no "magic" at all. By magic, I mean the ability to manipulate matter and energy in the way an arcane D&D spellcaster does. In Middle-earth, anyone or anything that is "magical" traces its sources to Aman, which in Tolkien's world is divinity. Gandalf, Sauron, Balrogs, the Noldor elves and all they created . . . all of them have have connections to Aman and the Valar. Anything not connected to Aman does not possess magical characteristics . . . hobbits, dwarves, and men, for instance.
 

Psychometrika

First Post
Hmm...I would build Gandalf the Grey as a powerful outsider approximately on the level of a Balor with spells per day that match the feats in the book. He is functionally the equivalent of an "Angel" (Maia are spirits not ordinary mortals) in the lore anyway, so I don't think classes really fit him well crunch or fluff-wise.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I've never understood why people are so quick to assume that an Angel and head of the order of Istari (wizards) is low level just because he didn't cast high level spells. He very easy could have chose not to, and indeed that is the truth of the matter. He was instructed not to use his full power by the Valar. He is much more powerful than the token magic he did in the books. This is further evidenced by Gandalf single handedly killing a Balrog (Balor in D&D).

Show me a 5th level wizard who can kill a Balor one on one.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I like to make the argument that in Middle-earth, there is actually no "magic" at all. By magic, I mean the ability to manipulate matter and energy in the way an arcane D&D spellcaster does. In Middle-earth, anyone or anything that is "magical" traces its sources to Aman, which in Tolkien's world is divinity. Gandalf, Sauron, Balrogs, the Noldor elves and all they created . . . all of them have have connections to Aman and the Valar. Anything not connected to Aman does not possess magical characteristics . . . hobbits, dwarves, and men, for instance.

Except the books say you are wrong. Gandalf says this outside the doors of Moria.

Gandalf: "I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves… Men… and Orcs."
 

Mike D

Explorer
Except the books say you are wrong. Gandalf says this outside the doors of Moria.

Gandalf: "I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves… Men… and Orcs."

I am aware of that quote, at the entrance to Moria . . . but that is the only reference I am aware of to anything of the sort. I could argue that was more of a turn of phrase for Gandalf than an actual reference to any such magic. There is nothing else in any of the other trilogy books, or the Silmarillion, that I can recall that supports his statement there.

I still stand by my statement - but I'll clarify it in light of that quote - in the LOTR (and Silmarillion), anything overtly and expressly magical can be traced to Aman and/or the Valar, thus making Middle-earth magic a divine art, not an arcane one.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Show me a 5th level wizard who can kill a Balor one on one.

First of all, he slew a Balrog, not a Balor. And he died doing it.

Secondly, the 1e Type 6 demon (of which, Balor, was a named individual) that was so obviously inspired by the Tolkien Balrog was an 8+8 HD monster. It needs relatively little boosting on account of race for a 5th or 6th level wizard to match an 8HD outsider. For example, taking Gandalf to be closest to a 1e Agathion would give Gandalf 7+7 HD plus the spellcasting ability, plus clerical ability, plus psionics. He's very much a match for the Type 6 demon entry in the 1e MM with those sort of stats. If anything, Gandalf as an Agathion with 6th level M-U ability might be over powered.

The 3e Balor with its 20HD is a product of the same sort of inflationary mindset that the article is speaking out against and which has been plaguing D&D for years now. But a 6th level wizard with a half-celestial template is about an 11th level character, and an 8HD evil outsider would be a quite serious challenge.

The stat blocks I've provided account for pretty much everything Gandalf does on screen and is implied to do off screen (such as in the fight with the Balrog, or the fight against the Ringwraiths on Weathertop). And making Gandalf a relatively low level character explains a lot of things that would otherwise be difficult to explain, such as the fact that the party is in fact threatened at least some by 1 HD orcs.

And I've also explained the upper end of the power scale here pretty well. With Manwe and Varda as Solars, the rest of the Valar as something like Planatars, Gandalf as an Agathion with 6 extra caster levels fits about right. Sauron is a of the first rank of the Maiar, originally Morgoth's lieutenant, so Gandalf is not so powerful that Sauron is directly threatened even if Gandalf were uncloaked. But conversely, Sauron is not so powerful that his moving mere orcs about makes no sense compared to his personal power, as armies of mooks are quickly annihilated in high level D&D in the way sending mooks against the Justice League is pointless. Sauron might be in 1e terms the equivalent of a fiend lord. Remember, Gothmog - a balrog of largest size - was Sauron's peer. Sauron might be adequately represented in 3e terms something like an 11th level were-wolf ghost sorcerer with the half-fiend templates. In 1e terms, you'd probably stat him up like a fiend lord (something comparable to the 1e Amon stat block would work well).

Based on what he's shown to do, Gandalf is in no fashion nearly as high of level as characters like Fingolfin, Feanor, or Luthien . Those characters were sufficiently high level that taking on Sauron one on one wasn't out of the question. By making Gandalf merely a 6th level Wizard, you can have Fingolfin or Luthien as say an 18th level character rather than something near 30th level. And you still have room above their heads for the Valar without getting ridiculous.

Is this the only way to do things? No, obviously this is somewhat arbitrary. The books weren't written with a game system in mind. But it's a very solid coherent way of looking at the issues, and I think it's a very healthy way for a GM to look at it. In D&D, by the time you hit 8th level, you are dealing with Capes with swords. You already have the tools for some pretty epic stuff. It's a low powered Supers game by that point. Middle Earth is much lower than powered than that on the whole (at least, if we aren't talking about the legends of the first age).
 

Kite474

Explorer
Yeah, I can buy that he isn't really all that powerful of a wizard in terms of D&D. But ,now please forgive me as I only have knowledge from the movies, the Istari are supposed to be high angels right? So does that mean in his "true" form can he pull off Exalted level shiz? From what I hear about The Silmarillion it had some pretty high magic stuff going on. Including some dragon that used mountains as hand rests.
 

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