Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

Some folks I hear discussing this topic these days take the position that Gandalf is actually a paladin. Certainly "wizards" in Tolkien's works aren't the same magic-missile-throwing folks as in regular D&D; in fact there are only five wizards in the whole of Middle Earth - and at least one of them (the 7th Doctor) is very clearly a druid.

What do you think? Is Gandalf a 5th level magic-user? What about in 5th Edition, given the upcoming Middle Earth release? I'm sure Cubicle 7 will tells for certain this summer, but until then...

 

[Morrus]

First of all, he slew a Balrog, not a Balor. And he died doing it.

Well, a Balor is a Balrog is much the same as saying a Halfling is a Hobbit or a Treant is an Ent. TSR changing the names because they got some nasty letters from some lawyers doesn't really factor in.

And yep, of course the stats changed throughout D&D editions. Which is why you'd need to also change Gandalf's stats through editions.

 

[Byakugan]

Clearly Gandalf's DM was a visionary who was using E5 rules(not 5E).

5th level magic was the best anyone could get, but he had enough HP to go toe to toe with a Balrog because he had several lifetimes worth of hitpoint gains.

The highest level spells we saw were probably Hallucinatory Terrain, a weak Telekinesis, Dispel Evil, and Control Water. All roughly 4th level magic, making it extremely powerful in context. Elrond used what was something between Dispel Evil and Heal on Frodo, but it was essentially a long term ritual spell cast by one of the 3 most ancient Elves on the planet.

 

[rgoodbb]

When you have such a multitude of spells including healing types and remove curses, Druidic spells such as animal messenger, speak with animals and daylight with thunderwave as has already been said, Bard is the way.

You also take Find Shadowfax from the Paladins list and either shield of faith or shield with magical secrets (an apt name for Gandalf)

Not sure 5th level would, as people are saying, defeat the balrog but Gandalf is low to mid levels in a low magic campaign for me

 

[Zardnaar]

The article also dates from a time where 10th level was epic level.

 

[Flamestrike]

The stat blocks I've provided account for pretty much everything Gandalf does on screen and is implied to do off screen (such as in the fight with the Balrog, or the fight against the Ringwraiths on Weathertop). And making Gandalf a relatively low level character explains a lot of things that would otherwise be difficult to explain, such as the fact that the party is in fact threatened at least some by 1 HD orcs.

Some Orcs?

View attachment 75527

Bounded accuracy is a bitch.

Based on what he's shown to do, Gandalf is in no fashion nearly as high of level as characters like Fingolfin, Feanor, or Luthien . Those characters were sufficiently high level that taking on Sauron one on one wasn't out of the question.

Fingolfin managed to strike Morgoth seven times before getting crushed by Grond. He was clearly a 20th level EK using action surge. He missed with his 8th attack.

By making Gandalf merely a 6th level Wizard, you can have Fingolfin or Luthien as say an 18th level character rather than something near 30th level. And you still have room above their heads for the Valar without getting ridiculous.

I have Gandalf the Grey as a LG Lore Bard 13/ Paladin 2. He levels up as Gandalf the White to 18th level, tacking on 2 more of Bard and 1 more of Paladin.

Aragorn is a NG Spell-less Hunter Ranger 7/ Champion fighter 3 when we first meet him. Boromir is a LN [shield master feat] champion fighter 9. Gimli is also a Champion fighter 7. Legolas is a Rogue 2 [cunning action, expertise in perception and acrobatics], Spell less hunter ranger 5. The Hobbits are all 1st level (rapidly shooting up to 3rd level) Rogue [Thieves]. Merry and Pippin later both MC as Fighters.

The Balrog of Moria is an up CR'd Balor [huge size]. As a named demon lord (and only 7 in existence), they are expressly more powerful than DnD 'common' Balors. CR 24 ballpark [OotA demon lord levels of power]. As a Fiend Gandalf was able to smite the crap out of it with divine smite [lucky he saved those spell slots fighting the Orcs previously]

Saurons power is somewhere between fallen Planetar and Deity. CR 30+ Tiamat+ levels of power. And thats his weakened form without the Ring.

 

[S'mon]

In 5e Gandalf is clearly a Valor Bard.
I'd probably want to make him at least 10th level, but much higher if I want to use 5e Balor stats for Balrogs.

 

[Flamestrike]

In 5e Gandalf is clearly a Valor Bard.
I'd probably want to make him at least 10th level, but much higher if I want to use 5e Balor stats for Balrogs.

Lore Bard MC'd with Paladin for mine. Dual weilder feat [movie version].

 

[Redthistle]

Well, a Balor is a Balrog is much the same as saying a Halfling is a Hobbit or a Treant is an Ent. TSR changing the names because they got some nasty letters from some lawyers doesn't really factor in.

And yep, of course the stats changed throughout D&D editions. Which is why you'd need to also change Gandalf's stats through editions.

As I recall, the books never explained specifically how Gandalf killed the Balrog. What we know is that Gandalf destroyed the stone bridge, plunging both himself and the demon into the chasm.

Might the monster's and the wizard's deaths have been simply the result of falling damage? Poor beastie had no powers of flight, apparently.

Doesn't take a lot of magic for that, and slamming his staff against the bridge tells us a magic item played a role in the action.

One things is for sure: Gandalf sacrificed himself to do it. The emotional wallop that delivered was more powerful than any magic involved.

 

[Xethreau]

I for one am usually against trying to cram extraordinarily complex and creative concepts into a non-custom D&D class. Even so, aside from the provocative title, I don't think this article is that revolutionary (thought admittedly it probably was at the time). To me this article is about how to effectively use the D&D rule-set to represent what we actually know from the story instead of just making something up.

That is to say, I think this article is about game/campaign design. The most important concept it conveys is to use the rules to help arbitrate the story--and not the other way around. We don't have to know how to simulate everything from the books to understand that rolling Gandalf as a 5th-level magic-user wouldn't be a bad design choice (for that edition).

 

[Celebrim]

As I recall, the books never explained specifically how Gandalf killed the Balrog.

Gandalf recounts the battle after returning, though he begs permission to be brief given the stress the memories cause for him. After destroying the bridge, Gandalf ends up in a grapple with the Balrog. They plunge thousands of feet but land in ice cold water, putting out the Balrog's fire. For a while, the Balrog tries to win the grapple, but eventually realizes that he's overmatched and flees. They both climb a staircase that runs from Moria's lowest level to the top of the mountain. When Gandalf arrives, the Balrog rekindles his flame and they engage in a spell duel - the Balrog's fire versus Gandalf's wizardry that wrecks the top of the mountain, causing landslides and avalanches. Gandalf ultimately wins, being presumably better able to penetrate the Balrog's fire resistance and spell resistance than the Balrog is his, and slays his foe but then lays down and dies of his wounds. His spirit returns to Aman, where he is judged by the Valar that sent him. They proclaim him a worthy and faithful servant and bid him return. His spirit returns to his body, where it is found by a friendly Eagle sent by Celeborn and Galadriel to investigate the battle on the mountain. Gandalf at this point has zero hit points, so he's taken to Galadriel who heals him.

Might the monster's and the wizard's deaths have been simply the result of falling damage? Poor beastie had no powers of flight, apparently.

No. Both parties survive their fall.

Doesn't take a lot of magic for that, and slamming his staff against the bridge tells us a magic item played a role in the action.

It's the likely source of the 'retributive strike' power of D&D's Staff of the Magi, but again I'm not sure that the D&D mechanic is particularly faithful to the scene. Neither Gandalf nor the Balrog appear to have been seriously hurt by Gandalf's act - only the bridge. Gandalf's staff breaking isn't clearly explained but does clearly illustrate the self-sacrificial nature of his act, and an apparent renunciation of his further duties as an Istari. However, this is contraindicated by the fact that the bridge does not break under his own feet, and he only goes over the edge because of the Balrog's spiteful retaliatory attack with the whip.

In any event, I agree that it makes for one of the most powerful scenes in all of literature.