Earlier in this thread I had asked for optimization help with a Warlock/Cleric build. I received some great advice and rebuilt it as a Warlock/Ur-Priest. Any additional suggestions and advice would be appreciated.
Ability Scores (with 32-point buy)
STR 10
DEX 12
CON 17 (increased from 12 with Manual of Bodily Health +5)
INT 12
WIS 19 (increased from 16 with 3 points from HD increases)
CHA 17 (increased from 15 with 2 points from HD increases)
Feats
Iron Will (prereq for Ur-Priest)
Fiendish Heritage
Noncombatant (flaw)
Nonreactive (flaw)
Fiendish Power
Fiendish Resistance
Spell Focus (Evil) (prereq for Ur-Priest)
Spell Penetration
Fiendish Legacy
Quickened Spell-like Ability (Eldritch Blast)
Undead Leadership
Empower Spell-like Ability (Eldritch Blast)
OPEN (still have feat slot for 21st level not yet picked)
In terms of gear, I am assuming a wealth by level spending limit of 975k for a 21st level PC. I'm planning on purchasing a mithril breastplate, gloves of dex +6, periapt of wisdom +6, and cloak of charisma +6, as well as the Ring of Chaotic Fury from the Epic Level Handbook (and, as referenced above, a Manual of Bodily Health +5). Changes or suggestions for additional gear would be welcome.
On the invocations, am I taking too many of a defensive or perceptive nature? I figure the Ur-Priest spells are going to be mostly for buffing and defense (particularly since his effective caster level is going to be too low to get through tougher spell resistance), but the 24 hour duration of many of the invocations is very attractive. I was also thinking of using a combination of the Devil's Sight with a Darkness spell and/or Enervating Shadow to give me concealment while still letting me see and attack normally.
In general, we run into a lot of creatures with high Spell Resistance and high saving throws and our battles are frequently huge. As an example, we just stormed a mind-flayer nautaloid with 20+ mindflayers on the upper decks with an elder brain (CR 25) and other creatures, and then as we moved into the lower decks encountered another 25 mindflayers and their minions.
I don't have access to Complete Mage on this computer, so I'm assuming Eld Disciple's level 9 ability is worth taking? ED doesn't improved your Ur-casting past level 8, but would continue to improve Warlock. If ED 9 isn't completely *awesome* I'd recommend taking a dip into Binder (Tome of Magic) and picking up the Naberius (sp?) vestige, this will help alot with that nasty losing 1 con everytime you use a Hell-fire Blast. Naberius causes you to heal one ability per round (only damage? maybe drain too).
Alternately, a dip into Marshal is also very nice... +Cha mod on caster level checks vs SR proved to be very handy in the last semi-epic campaign I was in.
I don't see much point for the Fiendish Heritage feats (except of course flavor). See if your DM will House Rule in Practised Invoker (arcane, divine, and psi all get it why not 'locks?). Also, I again recommend Mortalbane (Book of Vile Darkness). +2d6 with your Eldritch Blasts 5/day (you can take feat more than once for another +5/day) is nothing to sneeze at.
I'll contemplate some gear and get back to this...
Another dip... Mindbender (complete arcane) gives you telepathy 100ft. You'd need to know the Charm invocation though (unless you can manage it with Ur).
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Last edited by Drowbane; 20th April 2009 at 08:53 PM..
Earlier in this thread I had asked for optimization help with a Warlock/Cleric build. I received some great advice and rebuilt it as a Warlock/Ur-Priest. Any additional suggestions and advice would be appreciated.
I don't see a level of binder in here, nor do I see Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest) below. Tsk, tsk. The hellfire warlock has the nasty drawback of dealing you Con damage with each shot (pointless, in my eyes, since the warlock needs the damage boost), so you're going to need some way to mitigate that, either with a level of Binder to get Naberius (heals 1 ability damage per round) or the Strongheart Vest soulmeld (effectively DR for ability damage).
Also, might I suggest not waiting so long to get into Eldritch Disciple? Picking up a level of binder in there gets you +2 base Fort. That lets you get into Ur-Priest at 5th level, leaving you with
Ability Scores (with 32-point buy)
STR 10
DEX 12
CON 17 (increased from 12 with Manual of Bodily Health +5)
INT 12
WIS 19 (increased from 16 with 3 points from HD increases)
CHA 17 (increased from 15 with 2 points from HD increases)
Feats
Iron Will (prereq for Ur-Priest)
Fiendish Heritage
Noncombatant (flaw)
Nonreactive (flaw)
Fiendish Power
Fiendish Resistance
Spell Focus (Evil) (prereq for Ur-Priest)
Spell Penetration
Fiendish Legacy
Quickened Spell-like Ability (Eldritch Blast)
Undead Leadership
Empower Spell-like Ability (Eldritch Blast)
OPEN (still have feat slot for 21st level not yet picked)
The abilities and feats you have look good. However, you took Unreactive as a flaw. Never never never give up initiative! As a ranged single-target blaster, you don't want your enemies to buff or get behind cover or anything like that. I would suggest Vulnerable (-1 AC) which is nicely canceled out by one binder pact augmentation which gives you +1 insight to AC.
In terms of the open feat slot...not sure. I'll get back to you if I think of anything.
These look good. I would consider replacing one of them with Flee the Scene, though; teleportation is very useful, even at short range, and the major image can come in handy.
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In terms of gear, I am assuming a wealth by level spending limit of 975k for a 21st level PC. I'm planning on purchasing a mithril breastplate, gloves of dex +6, periapt of wisdom +6, and cloak of charisma +6, as well as the Ring of Chaotic Fury from the Epic Level Handbook (and, as referenced above, a Manual of Bodily Health +5). Changes or suggestions for additional gear would be welcome.
The greater chasuble of fell power (Complete Arcane) gives you +2d6 damage with eldritch blast, so I'd grab one of those. Other than that, I'm not sure; I've heard the MIC has some nice warlock-specific items you might want to look at.
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On the invocations, am I taking too many of a defensive or perceptive nature? I figure the Ur-Priest spells are going to be mostly for buffing and defense (particularly since his effective caster level is going to be too low to get through tougher spell resistance), but the 24 hour duration of many of the invocations is very attractive. I was also thinking of using a combination of the Devil's Sight with a Darkness spell and/or Enervating Shadow to give me concealment while still letting me see and attack normally.
That's a common strategy, and a good one.
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In general, we run into a lot of creatures with high Spell Resistance and high saving throws and our battles are frequently huge. As an example, we just stormed a mind-flayer nautaloid with 20+ mindflayers on the upper decks with an elder brain (CR 25) and other creatures, and then as we moved into the lower decks encountered another 25 mindflayers and their minions.
On a side note: Nautiloid! Go Spelljammer!
Ahem.
High SR and saves is going to be a pain. Vitriolic Blast is going to help with that at higher levels, so you might want to pick up an item that lets you change the damage type of your blast--an enemy with high SR and acid resistance or immunity will ruin your day. High saves...might not be a problem, if you use your spells well. You can beef up your saves fairly well, or simply fall back on buffing others.
Thanks guys. As a preface, the precise order of advancement I was looking at was: 6 Warlock / 2 Ur-Priest / 9 Eldritch Disciple / 3 Hellfire Warlock / +1 Warlock. Without looking at the Binder or other classes, this was the quickest way to meet the Skill and Saving Throw prereqs for Ur-Priest, the spell-casting requirements for Eldritch Disciple and then the rest of it fell in easily. I should also add that this build is currently premised on a human with a bonus feat and skill points.
Let me try to deal with the suggestions/comments in order.
Drowbane:
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I'm assuming Eld Disciple's level 9 ability is worth taking?
Sadly, it offers nothing special. The only reason I took the 9th level was because the first one does not improve the casting of the divine class. (Eldritch Theurge gives you 1+1 for all ten levels, but not Eldritch Disciple.) That's the only reason.
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Also, I again recommend Mortalbane (Book of Vile Darkness). +2d6 with your Eldritch Blasts 5/day (you can take feat more than once for another +5/day) is nothing to sneeze at
Definitely not ignoring your advice here and this was a tough bit of balancing and it may be worth reconsidering. I actually had Mortalbane in at one point (replaced it with spell penetration), but took it out because it seemed duplicative of the damage bonuses from Hellfire Warlock. Although I'm struggling to pick a feat for 21st level, I actually have a ton of non-epic feats I'd like to put in there and so decided to take it out in favor of better chances of penetrating SR. It was a great suggestion, though, and I'm open to reconsidering it.
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I don't see much point for the Fiendish Heritage feats (except of course flavor). See if your DM will House Rule in Practised Invoker (arcane, divine, and psi all get it why not 'locks?).
I went with the Fiendish chain largely because of the bonuses to Caster Level and DCs, but the resistances and teleporting 1/day was very attractive as well. It just seemed to meld well with the character and build.
I'll take a look at the Binder and Marshal classes. Eldritch Lord also mentioned the Binder, so it sounds like I should definitely take a peek at that.
Eldritch Lord:
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I don't see a level of binder in here, nor do I see Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest) below. The hellfire warlock has the nasty drawback of dealing you Con damage with each shot (pointless, in my eyes, since the warlock needs the damage boost), so you're going to need some way to mitigate that, either with a level of Binder to get Naberius (heals 1 ability damage per round) or the Strongheart Vest soulmeld (effectively DR for ability damage).
I will definitely look at the Binder class! Uncle, Uncle! Where do you find the Strongheart Vest soulmeld? (My DM is very RAW but I'm not sure he'd allow DR to apply, particularly since I that ability of the Hellfire Warlock says it won't function for someone without con or who is immune to Con damage.)
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The abilities and feats you have look good. However, you took Unreactive as a flaw. Never never never give up initiative! As a ranged single-target blaster, you don't want your enemies to buff or get behind cover or anything like that. I would suggest Vulnerable (-1 AC) which is nicely canceled out by one binder pact augmentation which gives you +1 insight to AC.
Good Point. I was thinking along the lines that he was going to have a Death Knight "bodyguard" with a high initiative (from the Undead Leadership feat) that would cover him that first round, but... yeah. This is probably even more true for a character that is going to need to stay mobile and use his abilities to avoid getting squashed.
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The greater chasuble of fell power (Complete Arcane) gives you +2d6 damage with eldritch blast, so I'd grab one of those.
Nice, I will have to look at that. The MIC does have some nice items, too, but a lot of them seem more targetted towards low-level warlocks. There were some gloves of eldritch admixture (going to one of the other suggestions), but the flip-side of that is then I lose the Gloves of Dexterity. Perhaps I could buy them and switch them for those times when the ability is needed.
Thanks guys. Really appreciate the help.
Last edited by SnowHeart; 20th April 2009 at 09:36 PM..
Reason: Added note about race as human
With 900+k gold to spend it wouldn't hurt to take a few +50% item costs to get multiple abilities to one item slot. As long as your DM allows it, of course.
__________________ "Was the Paladin's name Sir Lollerskates, and the Xixecal's name OMG'NERF? - One of my players, upon hearing that a level 36 paladin killed a Xixecal in one round.
Doesn't ur-priest require +3 fort save? So you shouldn't be able to enter as a warlock until warlock9, since they have poor fort saves, IIRC. You will likely have to enter as warlock5/mindbender1.
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With 900+k gold to spend it wouldn't hurt to take a few +50% item costs to get multiple abilities to one item slot. As long as your DM allows it, of course.
Or get MIC. It essentially removes the x1.5 cost multiplier for your basic stat boosting items. For example, you can add +6 int enhancement to an existing headgear at 1x price, not 1.5x.
Doesn't ur-priest require +3 fort save? So you shouldn't be able to enter as a warlock until warlock9, since they have poor fort saves, IIRC. You will likely have to enter as warlock5/mindbender1.
Well, I might have done something wrong, but I counted the +1 boost to the fort save from his Constitution score. Incorrect?
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Or get MIC. It essentially removes the x1.5 cost multiplier for your basic stat boosting items. For example, you can add +6 int enhancement to an existing headgear at 1x price, not 1.5x.
That will definitely be useful. What page is that?
That will definitely be useful. What page is that?
Page 234.
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Well, I might have done something wrong, but I counted the +1 boost to the fort save from his Constitution score. Incorrect?
You should be using his base, unmodified fort save.
So your build would be something like warlock5/mindbender1/ur-priest2/ED10/hellfire3. Squeeze in binder1 only if your DM allows it to offset the con damage from hellfire blast. There might be some conflict in flavour between ur-priest and eldritch disciple, but nothing a little ingenuity can't work around.
I will definitely look at the Binder class! Uncle, Uncle! Where do you find the Strongheart Vest soulmeld? (My DM is very RAW but I'm not sure he'd allow DR to apply, particularly since I that ability of the Hellfire Warlock says it won't function for someone without con or who is immune to Con damage.)
The soulmeld is in Magic of Incarnum. It's not literally DR for ability damage, it just reduces any ability damage you'd take. I'm quite a RAW DM as well, and I allow it just fine--reducing ability damage doesn't make you immune to ability damage, any more than a barbarian's DR 1/-- makes him immune to hit point damage.
The hellfire warlock has the nasty drawback of dealing you Con damage with each shot (pointless, in my eyes, since the warlock needs the damage boost), so you're going to need some way to mitigate that, either with a level of Binder to get Naberius (heals 1 ability damage per round) or the Strongheart Vest soulmeld (effectively DR for ability damage).
(Eldritch Theurge gives you 1+1 for all ten levels, but not Eldritch Disciple.) That's the only reason. 
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