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That doesn't matter - we know what a power can and/or should do, so from a _design_ standpoint it's subpar. Lack of other options doesn't make it higher quality or suggest that other powers shouldn't be better than it.
Comparing to Nimble Strike, Wolf Pack Tactics, and even Priest's Shield... it seems worse.
Looking at the grading criteria:
C - Okay. This power is certainly adequate but pales somewhat in comparison to other powers.
D - Poor. This power is certainly usable (and may even excel in certain rare situations), but is definitely lacking compared to other options.
It seems to fit fine - it is usable, excels in rare situations, and is lacking compared to other options and pales in comparison to other powers.
It seems worse, but a shift isn't that valuable for a ranged ranger. Since it might get them out of an OA for attacking in melee, but it won't prevent another as the enemy closes(or shifts into the space you left).
That doesn't matter - we know what a power can and/or should do, so from a _design_ standpoint it's subpar. Lack of other options doesn't make it higher quality or suggest that other powers shouldn't be better than it.
Comparing to Nimble Strike, Wolf Pack Tactics, and even Priest's Shield... it seems worse.
Yep. It's worse than Nimble Strike and Wolf Pack Tactics, which each do much the same thing. That's why they're rated B and I suggest it should be rated C. It doesn't do what it does badly - it just doesn't do it as well as those powers do, which is why they have a higher grade. If it did it badly, it would rate a D.
I consider it better than Priest's Shield for a bailout situation and obviously worse for a stand-and-fight situation.
It was C- until not all that long ago, so I'm not averse to upping it again, just being rigorous:
The following options would all be not as good as nimble strike, but better than hit and run:
1) Shift 1 after the attack
2) The first square you move does not provoke
3) If you take a move, you may shift 1 first
Its closest neighbor is Priest's Shield - which gives +1 AC to you and an adjacent ally, which honestly might be almost as useful for avoiding damage even in bailout rounds
Anyhow, I'll up to C- for now back where it was. Poor D, no company at all.
It was C- until not all that long ago, so I'm not averse to upping it again, just being rigorous:
The following options would all be not as good as nimble strike, but better than hit and run:
1) Shift 1 after the attack
2) The first square you move does not provoke
3) If you take a move, you may shift 1 first
Its closest neighbor is Priest's Shield - which gives +1 AC to you and an adjacent ally, which honestly might be almost as useful for avoiding damage even in bailout rounds
Anyhow, I'll up to C- for now back where it was. Poor D, no company at all.
Well, I'm not violently opposed to seeing it at D or anything. It was just a bit confusing as it didn't seem to merit a D to me.
This exercise was primarily focused on establishing guidelines for power design. It generated some interesting debate and is probably useful for DMs and players alike for comparing powers. While this post deals with at-wills, you may be interested in the daily or encounter powers here.
All powers are graded assuming they are used effectively - if a power requires a second person in melee to work, don't take it in a party with no other melee. In many cases you'll find that personal preference varies from these grades - while a power may be extraordinary in theory or combined with the right build or party, take the power that is most fun for you!
Grades
A - Excellent. This power brings something special to the table in terms of tactical ability or damage output. It may be too powerful, especially in the hands of the wrong class.
B - Good. This is a solid power. Most powers should fall into this grade.
C - Okay. This power is certainly adequate but pales somewhat in comparison to other powers.
D - Poor. This power is certainly usable (and may even excel in certain rare situations), but is definitely lacking compared to other options.
F - Compares extremely poorly to other powers and should likely be improved or ignored.
<Grading of LEVEL 1 At-Will attacks snipped for space>
OK, I finally have the books, so now I have a question.
All of the powers discussed so far have been LEVEL 1 At-Wills. There are a few other Utility At-Wills at higher levels. (The Rogue has a bunch, mostly Move actions.)
My question is about the Cleric LEVEL 6 At-Will, "Holy Lantern": it lasts for 10 hours once it has been used, and apparently cannot be dismissed; and a Cleric can only have one active at a time. This sounds very much like a Daily to me: cast it once, then not be able to dismiss it, and not be able to cast it again until its 10-hour duration has expired. (The text does not mention any way to dismiss it.)
Were the WotC designers intending this as a Daily, but made it At-Will to give it the green color in the book -- thereby making a hidden reference to "Green Lantern?" (Or has this already been discussed?)
Maybe I missed it (this is a long thread), but I cannot seem to find the brief explanation post for all the at-will powers.
For example, just to use Cleric as an example, for the Grading Encounter Powers and Grading Daily Powers posts, we had:
Quote:
Encounter 1 Powers:
*CLERIC*
C / Cause Fear
A- / Divine Glow
B / Healing Strike
B / Wrathful Thunder
My rough order/appraisal:
Divine Glow is a decent close blast that hits enemies only and can give multiple allies a bonus to attack.
Healing Strike does decent damage, marks, and has a decent heal.
Wrathful Thunder does low damage, but adds daze which is a very solid status.
Cause Fear is a bit too specialized and it's too easy to just move back. It can trigger some nice OAs, but I think it's the worst of the lot.
Encounter 3 Powers:
*CLERIC*
A / Blazing Beacon (Only in parties with ranged allies)
A- / Command
C+ / Daunting Light
B- / Split the Sky
Daunting Light does solid damage, radiant, over adequate range. The combat advantage is useful, but not really powerful. Split the Sky looks really nice, until you realize the enemy is just going to stand and charge. I've seen it use a couple times and that's happened every time. Command lets you daze and choose between prone or slid a fair ways, which is a very powerful controlling combo. No damage, though. Blazing Beacon provides a sizable +4 bonus to all ranged attacks against a target for a turn, which can be used for many attacks in a round by most members of the party, including action points, dailies, etc, so gets to be top of the pile.
Daily 1 Powers:
Quick note on damage - I'm assuming a baseline of 3W (or 3d8 - 3d10) damage for powers as I go through them, and I'm assuming some little bit added onto that 3 dice.
*CLERIC*
B- / Avenging Flame
A / Beacon of Hope
C+ / Cascade of Light
A- / Guardian of Faith
Cascade of Light is short range and under most circumstances I don't expect that vulnerability to add up to that much extra before it's saved against. If it's trivial to 'game' the vulnerability for a ton of damage with conjurations, zones, and ongoing damage, let me know.
Avenging Flame's ongoing damage can really rack up or force a creature to take no action for a round or two, which is quite nice. Unfortunately it gets no ongoing damage on a miss.
Beacon of Hope hits a nice large area and can add a metric ton of healing over the course of an encounter, and even potentially does a healthy amount up front. The weaken can hit several enemies which is also a solid kicker.
Guardian of Faith is particularly good against undead. Its abilities as a blocker were updated away, but not requiring a sustain action and especially when working with a fighter or some other penalty or difficulty moving (Pin the Foe, what have you) it can really do very good damage over the course of an encounter.
Daily 5 Powers:
*CLERIC*
A / Consecrated Ground
C+ / Rune of Peace
A / Spiritual Weapon
A / Weapon of the Gods
Consecrated Ground: Automatic damage to enemies only, surge-free healing to half health (useful after combat nothing else) - especially amusing on a high level PC getting dropped in the area and immediately waking up at the start of its turn. Every time. Oh, and it's movable.
Rune of Peace: vs Will. Guaranteed that target cannot attack for one round, which is extremely nice, though it doesn't set up other attacks like daze or blind, and is obviously worse than stun. Damage really low.
Spiritual Weapon: Guaranteed combat advantage on one target (switchable) each round for an entire battle. And, hey, damage while you're at it.
Weapon of the Gods: An extra d6 per attack from someone on an entire battle is actually quite respectable damage, but it gets really gross when you factor in the -2 AC that can be shifted from target to target as you kill them.
Is there something like that for the at-wills? If not, could you put it in the initial post?
Suppose that would be pretty necessary, rather than asking someone to read 8 pages of discussion at this point
I would definitely like to do it soon, but I'm a bit behind. I mean, I've got encounter 17s and daily 15s just sitting on my spreadsheet waiting to translate from my shorthand into legiblese.
I think Commander's Strike is one of the most underrated at-wills: It's granting an extra attack (incl. Bonus) for the cahracter with the best damage output and it's very variable.
I think Commander's Strike is one of the most underrated at-wills: It's granting an extra attack (incl. Bonus) for the cahracter with the best damage output and it's very variable.
I totally agree. I think commander's strike is very strong. An 18 int taclord using commander's strike with a 20 str fighter is a very strong combination.
Commander's strike is quite good - it is very comparable to Sly Flourish. Add a stat to damage and all that. Its restrictions are more severe but it's got great perks if you sacrificed Str some or have certain allies (not cha pallies or trickster rogues generally)
This is a bit of thread necro here, but I was wondering if anyone thought it worthwhile to discuss the additions in martial power? (I guess the same goes for the encounter and daily threads, but I'll keep my necrotic action to a minimum ;-) )
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4e balanced random loot system
- Think item wishlists are devilspawn?
- Dislike the impact of a few bad item picks by the DM on the party?
- Or find it ludicrous that PC's constantly just "happen" to find magic items tailored to their needs?
Try: A simpler treasure system for (mostly) random loot.
3.5 death&dying variant
- Tired of players that won't cure their mortally wounded allies 'cause "he's only at -2"?
- Tired of a dying mechanic which uses anachronistic d10's?
- Tired of a dying mechanic which never kicks into action for high level characters, which tend to go from alive and kicking to instant death before anyone can intervene?
- Tired of horribly complex house rules?
Try: Death & Dying - a better (and simple!) system
Here is my take for the new stuff since this list was initially made.
*ARTIFICER* B+ / Aggrevating Force B- / Thundering Armor
*BARBARIAN* (it's hard to judge these because eventhough they are at-will powers, they have some daily power effects built into them, which are hard to ignore when making a selection) B / Howling Strike B / Pressing Strike B+ / Recuperating Strike
*FIGHTER*
B- / Cleave
B- / Reaping Strike
F / Sure Strike (could be worked into a build that lets you use at-wills for OAs or purely as a minion killing maneuver)
B / Tide of Iron B+ / Brash Strike A / Crushing Surge A- / Dual Strike B+ / Footwork Lure
*PALADIN*
B- / Bolstering Strike
B / Enfeebling Strike
B+ / Holy Strike
B / Valiant Strike
*RANGER*
F / Careful Strike
C- / Hit and Run
B / Nimble Strike
A+ / Twin Strike B / Circling Strike C / Predator Strike
Forgive me if this has already been answered. Where would Sure Strike and Careful Attack be if they added Str/Dex to damage, and where would they be if they added Wis to damage? Probably slightly below the add 2 attributes to damage powers, right?
@Mengu: Why do you have Dual Strike as A- when Twin Strike is A+? They're the same power, and the only thing fighters are missing are Hunter's Quarry and only 1 die size of damage on each hand thanks to double weapons. It's still really good for pumping out damage.
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@Mengu: Why do you have Dual Strike as A- when Twin Strike is A+? They're the same power, and the only thing fighters are missing are Hunter's Quarry and only 1 die size of damage on each hand thanks to double weapons. It's still really good for pumping out damage.
Main reason is because with Dual Strike, you can't target two opponents, you must attack the same target. Secondly, the reason Twin Strike is so good is because it makes it much more likely to deal the Hunter's Quarry damage once per round. If fighters had such a feature that applied once per round to a target that's hit, this would bump the power up to an A (not an A+ because twin strike still has the advantage in minion clearing). The fighter's schtick is being able to mark things, and dual strike does not let them mark multiple targets. If it did, that alone might have pushed the power to an A+. As it stands, I think Dual Strike is an A- compared to Twin Strike which we graded an A+.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
I think I just came up with a decent fix for Careful Attack and Sure Strike to at least upgrade them to Cs or Bs, without being unbalanced.
+2 to hit, -2 to damage. Essentially it is an inverse power attack.
Lets look at it now. You have 18 dex using a longbow. Normally you have +6 hit 1d10+4 damage. Careful attack gives you +8 hit for 1d10 dmg. -4 damage for +2 to hit? The higher your dex, the worse it sucks. Lame.
Now the fixed version. Careful attack gives you +8 hit for 1d10+2 dmg. Compare to twin striking giving +6 to hit twice, each doing 1d10 dmg.
Assume an enemy has AC 17. A regular attack does an average of 4.5 damage. The Careful attack does an average of 3 damage. The Fixed Careful attack does an average of 5 damage. Twin Strike does an average of 5 damage as well.
Now lets take a higher level example. The character is level 20, has a +6 dex bonus, and a +3 weapon. he has +21 to hit and does 1d10+9 dmg with a regular attack. With Careful attack (RAW) he has +23 to hit and does 1d10+3 damage. Fixed Careful Attack he has +23 to hit and does 1d10+7 dmg. Twin Strike has two +21 attacks each doing 1d10+3 damage.
Assume the enemy has an AC of 32. His regular attack does an average of 7 damage. Careful attack (RAW) does 4.8 damage. Fixed Careful Attack does 7.2 damage. Twin Strike does 8 damage.
This fix keeps them relatively balanced, makes the at will still better than a regular attack, and continues to be useful even at level 20.
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Disheartening strike feels like it should be an A. A- at least. If you are a ruthless ruffian it is patently better than sly flourish. The -2 to all attacks the enemy makes is enormous. I will follow up after more play.
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I'll update the first post if people discuss the values.
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