D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
This exercise was primarily focused on establishing guidelines for power design. It generated some interesting debate and is probably useful for DMs and players alike for comparing powers. While this post deals with at-wills, you may be interested in the daily or encounter powers here.
All powers are graded assuming they are used effectively - if a power requires a second person in melee to work, don't take it in a party with no other melee. In many cases you'll find that personal preference varies from these grades - while a power may be extraordinary in theory or combined with the right build or party, take the power that is most fun for you!
Grades
A - Excellent. This power brings something special to the table in terms of tactical ability or damage output. It may be too powerful, especially in the hands of the wrong class.
B - Good. This is a solid power. Most powers should fall into this grade.
C - Okay. This power is certainly adequate but pales somewhat in comparison to other powers.
D - Poor. This power is certainly usable (and may even excel in certain rare situations), but is definitely lacking compared to other options.
F - Compares extremely poorly to other powers and should likely be improved or ignored.
A+ powers in particular are at a dangerous balance level. If designing a new power and it is on par, or better, than an A+, most likely you should go back to the drawing board and tweak some things.
B- is what I considered the baseline for comparison of powers. A bit worse and it's in the C territory, but a fair amount of distance to get into the A range.
*FIGHTER*
B- / Cleave
B- / Reaping Strike
F / Sure Strike (could be worked into a build that lets you use at-wills for OAs or purely as a minion killing maneuver)
B / Tide of Iron
*PALADIN*
B- / Bolstering Strike
B / Enfeebling Strike
B+ / Holy Strike
B / Valiant Strike
*RANGER*
F / Careful Strike
C- / Hit and Run
B / Nimble Strike
A+ / Twin Strike
My comments on the wizard dailies, which are the ones I'm most familiar with:
* Cloud of Daggers (you: 7, Me: 6) Good spell for control wizards- you'll get a fairly reasonable hit, and you create an obstacle. Perfectly viable, just not spectacular.
* Magic Missile (you: 6, Me: 4) Sorry, the "basic missile attack" property on this one isn't enough of a perk to save this one. It's the clunker of the lot.
* Ray of Frost (you: 6, Me: 7) I like ray of frost quite a bit. Slowing an opponent prevents a melee attack from him a nice chunk of the time. Lots of tactical possibilities. Perfect to prevent someone from fleeing.
* Scorching Burst (you: 8, Me: 9) This is the winner of the bunch, as far as I'm concerned. At-will minion-clearing combined with comparable damage to the other at-wills. Awesome.
* Thunderwave (you: 9, Me: 7) Very good spell- one that I'll experiment with, I'm sure. But there are a couple of warning lights here: it's a close burst, which makes it an CYA power more than anything else (not that there's anything wrong with that); It's also an attack versus fortitude, which isn't optimal against brutes, who tend to have low reflex but high fortitude saves. Several that I've seen have forts higher than their AC. Since this is the class you'd most want to push away, I wouldn't call this ideal.
* Illusionary Foes (You: 7, Me: 7) It's the wizard's only will attack in at-will powers. That alone gives it a nudge. The -2 attacks is nice to help out your front line. I think it's a notch below ray of frost, but barely so, and the two spells occupy different niches anyway.
* Magic Missile (you: 6, Me: 4) Sorry, the "basic missile attack" property on this one isn't enough of a perk to save this one. It's the clunker of the lot.
I disagree with you about Magic Missile. The most important advantage it has is not the ability to be used as a ranged basic attack, but rather its 20 square range. That's double the range of all the other wizard ranged at-wills! It's also 2nd highest in damage potential (exceeded only by cloud of daggers if one has a really good Wisdom). My Wizard picked Magic Missile and Scorching Burst and has never looked back. We've only been playing a couple weeaks and that 20 square range has been useful several times already.
Nah, if you look carefully, you don't add your ability modifier to the damage of either attack, so it's actually kinda crappy, IMO. Once your ability modifier exceeds 5, on average you'll be doing more damage with a basic attack than with Twin Strike...
3/ Cloud of Daggers (it's a decent obstacle but very situational)
4/ Magic Missile (Ranged 20 is overrated. You'll eventually have to move up for the other powers)
10/ Ray of Frost (At will spammable slow? Mr. Brute ain't doing diddly 'til turn 4)
7/ Scorching Burst (AOE damage for minions and spamming)
9 / Thunderwave (Push everyone in the same direction and AOE)
7 / Illusionary Foes (Only vs Will and actually does something to artilleries)
I think that Piercing Strike & Sly Flourish are both good too - extra to hit sometimes & extra damage (in that build).
I think Furious Smash & Commanders Strike are both rather poor. Warlords are really strength dependent & if you rely on giving allies extra attacks it implies theirs are better than yours which implies yours are pretty terrible - which has implications for all of your other powers. The odd Commanders Strike for a rogue/ranger that has not sneak attacked would be an exception, so better for humans who can carry a sitiational power. Mind you they are all situational.
I think you are right for fighters & I have no feel for the others at all (must play more)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falling Icicle
Nah, if you look carefully, you don't add your ability modifier to the damage of either attack, so it's actually kinda crappy, IMO. Once your ability modifier exceeds 5, on average you'll be doing more damage with a basic attack than with Twin Strike...
It's the most damaging at will there is once you factor in quarry.
Longbow basic attack does d10+5
Longbow twin strike does 2d10 but you have twice the chance of getting your quarry bonus. (or at 50% hit rate actually 25% more - it's less good against really easy targets.)
It doubles the benefits from all damage buffs that are not attrribute modifiers.
It will kill precisely twice as many minions as any at will except Cleave & the wizard ones.
Last edited by Pickles JG; 2nd July 2008 at 01:21 AM..
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Nah, if you look carefully, you don't add your ability modifier to the damage of either attack, so it's actually kinda crappy, IMO. Once your ability modifier exceeds 5, on average you'll be doing more damage with a basic attack than with Twin Strike...
You are dismissing all of the other bonuses to damage rolls. This is not a good idea, as it can be (and likely will be) extremely significant.
As for my evaluations: Cleric Lance of Faith - 6 Priest's Shield - 5 Righteous Brand - 10 Sacred Flame - 9
Fighter Cleave - 4 Reaping Strike - 4 Sure Strike - 2 Tide of Iron - 6
You have them mostly in the same ballpark I would grade them in. The ones I somewhat disagree with:
Score / Power
*CLERIC*
6 / Lance of Faith - should be a 7, as good as Sacred Flame, frequently better.
10 / Righteous Brand - should be a 9, not quite the best at-will.
*FIGHTER*
6 / Reaping Strike - should be 7 or 8, since it results in very high expected damage values.
*PALADIN*
6 / Valiant Strike - should be higher than Holy Strike, 7 is good
*RANGER*
8 / Twin Strike - if any at-will deserves a 10, this is it.
*ROGUE*
5 / Deft Strike - at least a 6, if not a 7. Being able to combine extra movement with a move action is fantastic.
6 / Piercing Strike - at least a 7, if not an 8. No other at-will targeting reflex gains weapon proficiency bonuses.
6 / Riposte Strike - should probably be a 7, extra attacks aren't easy to come by.
*WARLOCK*
6 / Dire Radiance - should be a 7, it puts an enemy between a rock and a hard place.
*WIZARD*
6 / Ray of Frost - should be a 5, slow very situationally comes into play.
9 / Thunderwave - should be lower, maybe 7, Close blasts are scary for the wizard, Scorching Burst is much more convenient to use.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
I just want to second that Piercing Strike is very good. A 1st-level rogue can fairly easily get a +8 vs Ref attack with this (18 Dex, use a dagger), which is pretty amazing.
I just want to second that Piercing Strike is very good. A 1st-level rogue can fairly easily get a +8 vs Ref attack with this (18 Dex, use a dagger), which is pretty amazing.
Yep, piercing strike with a rogue's attack bonus is almost an autohit in many cases, I think its actually one of the best at-wills in the game.
3/ Cloud of Daggers (it's a decent obstacle but very situational)
4/ Magic Missile (Ranged 20 is overrated. You'll eventually have to move up for the other powers)
10/ Ray of Frost (At will spammable slow? Mr. Brute ain't doing diddly 'til turn 4)
7/ Scorching Burst (AOE damage for minions and spamming)
9 / Thunderwave (Push everyone in the same direction and AOE)
7 / Illusionary Foes (Only vs Will and actually does something to artilleries)
Ray of Frost is not anywhere near as useful as you indicate.
Cloud of Daggers has many uses:
1) It often averages the most single target At Will damage.
2) It typically kills a minion, even if the Wizard misses.
3) It typically damages an opponent, even if the Wizard misses.
4) It can be used to prevent flank, or wall up a doorway, or other situational control uses.
Ray of Frost is a lot less useful:
1) It typically averages the least single target At Will damage.
2) It may slow one opponent for one turn which may or may not stop that opponent from attacking. But even if the target is not within 4 of the Wizard, at a range of 10, it is probably within range of other PCs, either with a ranged weapon or with a charge.
3) It might make it more difficult for an opponent to flee.
4) It targets Fort which is on average, 2 higher for most opponents in the MM than Reflex or Will.
Slowing a single opponent, one opponent at a time, is not that big of a deal.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
Last edited by KarinsDad; 2nd July 2008 at 05:42 AM..
Nah, if you look carefully, you don't add your ability modifier to the damage of either attack, so it's actually kinda crappy, IMO. Once your ability modifier exceeds 5, on average you'll be doing more damage with a basic attack than with Twin Strike...
An average Ranger has dex 18. At first level, basic does 1d10+4(9.5) and Twin Strike does 2d10(11), at 8th, when you get 20 dex, you will generally have weapon focus and a +2 weapon, making basic 1d10+8(13.5) and Twin Strike does 2d10+6(17), at 14th when you get 22 dex, you should have weapon focus and a +3 weapon, making basic 1d10+11(15.5) and Twin Strike does 2d10+10(21), at 21st, when you get 24 dex, you should have weapon focus and a +5 weapon, making basic 2d10+18(29) and Twin Strike does 4d10+16(38).
All of this is without quarry which also favours twin strike. Starting with 20 dex makes the basic slightly better, but not enough, and if you lose your magic weapon the basic attack gets a lot closer, but the basic attack will only ever be "better" as a bow ranger if you're without magic weapons, haven't taken weapon focus, aren't shooting your quarry, are below level 21 and have at least 22 dex.
Last edited by small pumpkin man; 2nd July 2008 at 05:09 AM..
And if you get into a situation where you can't/shouldn't fire you can always bust out some melee weapons and have a chance at getting in some damage despite a likely low strength score.
For the Wizard at-wills I think the targeted defence is important. Kerberian's Monster Manual statistics summary shows that Fortitude is usually harder to hit than Reflex, and in the case of brutes is usually higher than AC. Lurkers are the only monster type where Fortitude has a significant advantage over Reflex, and targeting will is better for all types. The enemies you'd want to hit with Ray of Frost are the ones you don't want to get into melee ie often brutes and soldiers, and they have the best Fortitudes.
One note about Cloud of Daggers vs Magic Missile is that since it's an area spell it ignores cover and concealment - you just need line of effect.
For my human wizard (still at first level in KotS) I chose Scorching Burst, MM and Thunderwave. I've found I've never yet used Thunderwave, I've used MM on occasion and I'm spamming Scorching Burst all the time. In most of our fights I'm able to get 2-3 attacks a round with Burst.
f my DM allows the new illusion spells from Dragon 364 I'll probably swap MM for Illusionary Foes. Not only for the Will attack, but because it's the most generally useful against solo enemies. The defenders and leaders in our party will usually be in melee with a solo, so the slow from Ray of Frost wouldn't help much, while the -2 to hit will help keep the front line alive.
so:
5-7 / Cloud of Daggers (depending on Wisdom)
5 / Magic Missile
4 / Ray of Frost
10/ Scorching Burst
6-8 / Thunderwave (more useful for melee Wizards than my one)
9 / Illusionary Foes (some monsters are immune to illusions.)
Nah, if you look carefully, you don't add your ability modifier to the damage of either attack, so it's actually kinda crappy, IMO. Once your ability modifier exceeds 5, on average you'll be doing more damage with a basic attack than with Twin Strike...
The only thing you don't add to it is ability bonus, this means weapon enhancement, feat based damage enhancement, and buffs provided from other players still apply. Doing d10s with no other bonuses you would need an ability of +5 to get the same median damage assuming a hit.
The only other ranger at will you can compare it to is careful strike (+2 to hit, 1[W] + ability damage), since the others are movement based utility powers. With 19+ required to hit careful strike has a better chance of doing damage (by 1%) than twin strike, at 18 and lower required to hit twin strike has a better chance of landing at least one blow on the target. Twin strike is also versatile, it works as well against the big baddie as it does a horde of minions, where as careful strike is more aimed at mobs with very high AC.
So I would give twin strike a perfect 10, versatile, powerful, and just plain fun to use.
Another perfect 10 at will power IMHO is Sacred Flame. No other at will power extends a parties endurance as much as this one. At first level its about a healing surge saved every three or so occurrences of damage taken, and it scales very well as the party rises in level. Not to mention the optional save can be a lifesaver in a pinch. The only draw back to this power is the record keeping, especially when mobs regularly hit for less than the temp HP amount. So its versatile, and powerful and not to difficult to keep track of as long as you use a token or something to track the condition.
__________________ "Presence of mind is nothing but an increased capacity of dealing with the unexpected."
Carl von Clausewitz
Interesting how much of the response centers around the wizard at-wills. So, both cloud of daggers and thunderwave I assumed that you would have a respectable Wisdom, just for one clarification. Best to assume a power will be used to its best effect:
Cloud of Daggers: Highest damage at-will, Autokills minions and autodamages others, extra damage to swarms, provides a chokepoint, has synergy with other movement powers
Magic Missile: Longest range, gains bonus damage from bracers of perfect shot, can gain extra attacks with a warlord
Ray of Frost: Lower damage, slows. Problem is that its primary intended target's best defense is likely Fortitude, and the power has no additional effect under many circumstances (ie, when slow doesn't matter)
Scorching Burst: Only At-Will Area power. Otherwise lackluster, but this is a very big deal.
Thunderwave: Only At-Will that does not provoke. Hits a good sized area and pushes potentially _very_ far. While less respectable at low level, being able to push as much as 8 squares later with an at-will makes this the best at-will for _control_.
Illusionary Foes: Most reliably effective secondary effect.
Quote:
Cleave - 4 Reaping Strike - 4
Weird, you think these are worse than Priest's Shield? Cause Priest's Shield is a 5, and I figured Cleave's minion killing and autohitting was a step up from a +1 AC bonus.
Similarly, I figured Reaping Strike was the best choice for difficult to hit solo and elite monsters and netted a respectable damage increase... I was tempted to set it lower than Cleave, but figured it was still better than Priest's Shield.
Quote:
I think Furious Smash & Commanders Strike are both rather poor.
I'm not terribly enthused by commander's strike, but it is the equivalent of a Sly Flourish or Holy Strike that lets you add another stat to damage (Int in this case) and allows a warlord to use a one-hand and shield and let a 2h fighter type make the actual hit (or rogue, or whatever).
Furious Smash (and Righteous Brand) are both based on the fact that they can setup hits by your ally's encounter or daily powers that are worth more than an at-will.
Quote:
Lance of Faith - should be a 7, as good as Sacred Flame, frequently better.
+2 to an ally's attack is quite good, but sacred flame's ability to give a save is practically on par with a utility power in its own right. The temporary hit points can also be a surprising amount of proactive healing. That said, I did almost make this change myself because lance of faith is more consistently useful, even if I like Sacred Flame more.
Quote:
6 / Valiant Strike - should be higher than Holy Strike, 7 is good
Hmm, anyone else agree? Valiant Strike looks to me like the correct way to do, say, Sure Strike... a flavorful bonus to attack without losing the damage... but is it notably better to have, say, +2 attack on an at-will than +Wis if you're Wis-specced?
Quote:
5 / Deft Strike - at least a 6, if not a 7. Being able to combine extra movement with a move action is fantastic.
6 / Piercing Strike - at least a 7, if not an 8. No other at-will targeting reflex gains weapon proficiency bonuses.
6 / Riposte Strike - should probably be a 7, extra attacks aren't easy to come by.
So, I set Deft Strike where it was based on the theory that Nimble Strike was more useful - you can shift 1 before or after the attack, and it's a shift instead of a move. Deft Strike's best use is for getting flank then moving back out, as far as I can tell... which is very good, but I set it 1 lower because it provokes and movement is only before the attack.
Piercing Strike is like getting a +2 to +3 to hit on average - more under certain circumstances. It seems to me like Twin Strike ends up more effective than that. I'll up it to 7 for now, at least.
I'm not seeing Riposte Strike at all - the target can just not hit the rogue again, and it's a strength-based attack that won't get extra sneak attack (cause you already hit). I mean, it's good certainly, but better than the other rogue at-wills? Maybe I'm missing something here.
Quote:
*WARLOCK*
6 / Dire Radiance - should be a 7, it puts an enemy between a rock and a hard place.
Hellish Rebuke is easier to trigger and Dire Radiance targets Fortitude, the best defense of the melee types you'd likely best want to use it on. So I dropped it 1.
Last edited by keterys; 2nd July 2008 at 07:19 AM..
Nah, if you look carefully, you don't add your ability modifier to the damage of either attack, so it's actually kinda crappy, IMO. Once your ability modifier exceeds 5, on average you'll be doing more damage with a basic attack than with Twin Strike...
You are right you about not adding your ability, but just plain wrong on an purely objective level about everything else. Folks have run a ton of math simulations on twin strike, and hands down it does more damage than any other at-will power in the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minigiant
I disagree with the wizard at wills
3/ Cloud of Daggers (it's a decent obstacle but very situational)
Situational? It does damage to the thing you cast it on, and does damage again on that things next round. It does more direct damage to a target than any other at-will power at the Wizard's disposal. AND it stays around so you can push more foes into it with thunderwave!
Quote:
10/ Ray of Frost (At will spammable slow? Mr. Brute ain't doing diddly 'til turn 4)
So I would give twin strike a perfect 10, versatile, powerful, and just plain fun to use.
Another perfect 10 at will power IMHO is Sacred Flame. No other at will power extends a parties endurance as much as this one. At first level its about a healing surge saved every three or so occurrences of damage taken, and it scales very well as the party rises in level. Not to mention the optional save can be a lifesaver in a pinch. The only draw back to this power is the record keeping, especially when mobs regularly hit for less than the temp HP amount. So its versatile, and powerful and not to difficult to keep track of as long as you use a token or something to track the condition.
Twin Strike is the best of the raw damage powers, so I set it above the rest (2 points higher than +Cha for Sly Flourish, for instance), but I don't understand how it's versatile. It also offers nothing except damage, however, so I'd have trouble making it a 10. I wasn't factoring in its minion killing goodness so I'll up it 1, but... After all, Righteous Brand seems like it's far better (I'll just hit and... okay, ally, lay on your daily with almost no chance to miss).
I really like Sacred Flame as well, but its secondary effects feel like they're not always useful and it does do slightly less damage than Lance of Faith. It's certainly less proactive.
I'll admit flat out that I don't expect a lot of powers to get up in the 9/10 range, because, well, it's hard to compare to Righteous Brand when you get right down to it.
One reason people cited for lowering Thunderwave is because it's scary for a wizard to get into close range - while that's certainly true, it may not be as true for other controllers (imagine a controller who worked like the infernal warlock, for instance), and there are certainly builds (Arcane Reach, WotST, multiclass, eternal seeker, wizard / Iron Vanguard, etc) that can make it extremely powerful.
From my perspective, I'd have a hard time making a spell that was more powerful than Thunderwave as an at-will option for any class, and I'd have serious second thoughts about making one that was equal, too. Hence, my initial 9. I did lower it to an 8 cause I'm clearly in the minority there
Last edited by keterys; 2nd July 2008 at 07:18 AM..
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
My problem with Cloud of daggers is that is becomes a simple minion killer once you pass a few levels. It'll only deal Wis mod more damage than the other at will. At level 7+, it'll be 3-5 more damage and auto-minion kill. I could use SBurst for area, RoF for 1 turn slow, MM for range, IA for -2 to attacks etc.
Also take the feats into consideration
Ray of Frost is great with the 2 cold feat combo (wintertouch+lasting frost). If you hit you get +2 to attack and +5 damage for cold attacks. It'll be great when all your enc and dailies are done. And not all brutes high high Forts. And those speedy skirmishers and lurker have terrible Fort.
Thunderwave with Arcane Reach and Resounding Thunder gains some range. Add solid sound for defense help.
Illusionary Foes is psychic right? Psychic lock = -4 to attack.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
