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D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
I'm playing a Level 1 Elven Rogue (Brawny Rogue, Brute Scoundral)
I have 20 Dex and 18 Str. Tell me if I'm correct in a few things...
Using throwing daggers, my attack roll is 5+3+1 (8) vs ____.
Using Shuriken, my attack roll is 5+3 (7) vs ____.
My sneak attack is +2d6 and with the feat for sneaks, it is +2d8.
I can add this sneak attack damage to one attack per round.
I can sneak attack anyone I have combat advantage on.
Lets say I use my Day Power (Trick Strike) with a shuriken at someone I have combat advantage on, and decide to use sneak attack with it. Am I right to assume it looks like this:
Attack: (+5, +3, +2 = [+10 to hit]) Vs (REFLEX) Damage: (3[W] + Dex [3d6+5 {+} 2d8+3])
Lets also say I have an action point and I spend it.
I choose to add the attack action and perform Torturous Strike.
Attack: (+5, +3, +2 = [+10 to hit]) Vs (REFLEX) Damage: (2[W] + Dex + Str [2d6+5+4])
Meaning the max damage I can do this turn will be - 63 damage.
____
1st of all, none of the other characters can get anywhere near that kind of damage output, so I know I must be doing MANY things wrong. Secondly, my attack is SOOOO high. The spellcasters are getting like +5 or so to hit with powers, but I get a +10? I must be doing something wrong still.... Lastly, I would love if someone could help me in making my character sheet legal. This character killed a level 9 NPC solo in only a few turns. It really makes the game suck being too strong, imho.
First of your ability scores are way higher than the rules recommend. If using the standard array your dex would 18 and your str 14, if using the recommended point buy the best you could do would be dex 20 and str 14 and the rest of your scores would be 10's (with one 11).
So the problem could be that rest of the characters have significantly lower ability scores than yours.
If they have equivalent scores, then there shouldn't be a problem. The rogue (and the Ranger) is designed to do a lot of damage, but on the other hand can't take a lot of damage in return.
Other classes are designed with other goals, so they should not be able to do that kind of damage (that said a 1st level Maul fighter with Str 20 burning a Daily Power, Action point and Encounter Power could do 10d6+12 damage = a maximum of 72).
Your STR and DEX are way too high, costing 32 point buy points out of the 22 you are allowed. Fixing that will solve part of your problem.
Your formulas are mostly right, though your Brutal Scoundrel damage bonus with STR 18 would be +4, not +3,
Trick strike targets AC and Torturous strike targets Fort.
Daily + action point + encounter power is a huge wallop; it should only be possible about once every 3-4 encounters. If your DM is letting you regain dailies after every fight so you can do this routinely, he/she is being too easy on you.
And yes, you are a striker. When you get all medieval on some bad guy, you can hurt him a lot. Rangers can do similar damage. Warlocks do a bit less but tend to also inflict status effects. Other classes can't match your damage output, but they have abilities that keep you alive to do it.
Okay I meant to write Vs. AC and not Vs. Dex, so thats not the problem. And my stats were rolled. 2 18's, 1 12, two 8's, and a 6.. add all mods up to get +5 which is higher than 4 and lower than 8, which is a legal roll according to the PHB. Then I added my dex bonus to the 18 and my str had 18. All of my other stats suffer dramatically, but its fine since I wanted to design the character to basically kill bad.
The DM doesn't let us rest more than 'short rests' which means we only get dailys... each daily. (we do sleep, but still only get dailys after sleeping, and once every 24h)
It just seems broken to be that strong when our wizard and warlock can barely pass attacks w/o rolling 15's and I rolled a 5 and succeded in an attack.
The attack bonus for a rogue using a dagger will seems somewhat obscene, but the tradeoff is damage potential (compared to for example a rapier) and that you will often be targetting AC, which is higher than other defenses. That said, a well played rogue will most likely outdo most anyone in the striking department but it takes careful tactical planning to achieve combat advantage on the majority of your attacks.
In your case, the problem is your rather skewed stat array (which might be very fun to play, where did you put the 6?).
And Torturous Strike targets AC. At least in my PHB, and I haven't seen any errata on that.
And my stats were rolled. 2 18's, 1 12, two 8's, and a 6.
You have identified the problem right there. Because the stats are higher (or rather more polarised) than the game system is designed for, your character will find it easier hit and damage level appropiate opponents in combat than he is meant to.
If the other player characers do not have several 18's in their important ability scores you risk overshadowing them in combat.
If they do not have at least a 16 in their primary score (due to bad dice) they are severely handicapped.
On the other hand you either have lousy HP and Healing surges (because of low constitution) or a lousy Will Defense (due to low wisdom and charisma). So maybe your DM just needs to target your weak spots a bit more.
It just seems broken to be that strong when our wizard and warlock can barely pass attacks w/o rolling 15's and I rolled a 5 and succeded in an attack.
If this is true, your DM doesn't understand the rules (or the other players put like an 8 or a 10 in their prime stat). Something doesn't add up.
__________________ 4e Draegor Campaign: 128 hours played.
First of all, a rogue usually has the highest +hit chance in 4ed of all characters.
However, as said before, your alternative system of generating stats is what caused the real problems here.
With these scores, you character has far better attacks then the system would assume (=broken). On the other hand, your defenses and (role playing) skills are worse than the system assumes.
I strongly suggest that your group reconsideres their way of rolling abiltity scores, if they really want more balance, both in and out of combat.
A 9th level Solo should have an AC of atleast 23, probably 25. It should have around 400 hit points, 2 action points, multiple attacks per round, and at least one strong defensive ability. If its an NPC its also got all sorts of cool PC powers depending on its class.
If your 2nd level rogue beat that creature (let alone beat it in a few turns), the GM was either coddling you, incredibly unlucky, or didn't create it according to the rules.
First of all, a rogue usually has the highest +hit chance in 4ed of all characters.
However, as said before, your alternative system of generating stats is what caused the real problems here.
With these scores, you character has far better attacks then the system would assume (=broken). On the other hand, your defenses and (role playing) skills are worse than the system assumes.
I strongly suggest that your group reconsideres their way of rolling abiltity scores, if they really want more balance, both in and out of combat.
His stats are really not that out-of-this-world. A Bugbear rogue could come pretty close to those stats with a 22 point-buy, and a 20 Dex for a rogue isn't at all rare. Rogues really are just that much more accurate than other classes in 4E.
Rogue's, because of sneak attack, want to always have combat advantage when they attack ... which means that in addition to probably a +7 or +8 to hit [since they'll likely be using either a dagger, or something with a +3 prof bonus] they'll have the 2 for combat advantage ... it is not unexpected to have the best to hit in the part. Short of the Fighter with the class based bonus and a blade to get +8 on all attacks, the Rogue almost always has the best to hit. Without combat advantage, they have a similar to hit as most of the meleer's, and have to be wielding a dagger to match a blade fighter.
So, getting the combat advantage is the bigger challenge for a Rogue than anything else ... he has to put himself at risk to get it in many situations [especially flanking, or getting next to a prone opponent]. The rest of the party still gets to participate, as their powers that grant combat advantage become much more powerful with a rogue around.
But, ultimately, the Rogue is one of the best "pure" strikers ... while the Ranger has the benefit of being better at ranged, having more attacks that can go after multiple targets, as well as some ways of protecting the party through interupts. The warlock is much more of a controller than a rogue, giving up damage output for ways to frustrate the opponent, or keep themselves alive.
As others have mentioned, part of it is that your stats are much higher than the norm. Still, that is only a few points difference - you aren't any worse than my own bugbear rogue, who might be the highest damage in the party, but not so much so that other characters are left behind.
So, let's analyze your numbers a bit.
Attacks: With a dagger, you are at +9 to hit (+5 Dex, +3 Proficiency, +1 Rogue). A caster with similar stats will be at +5 to hit. When you make attacks against AC, you are typically +1 to +2 ahead of them; when you make attacks against Reflex, Fortitude or Will, you are +4 ahead of them. That is significant - but then, accuracy is a rogue's strong point. And while you can reliably attack Reflex, and can occasionally attack other Defenses, casters are likely to have more options in general, and be more able to target the enemy weak spot.
In any case, you mention your wizards and warlocks need 15s, and you hit on a 5. Something about that is simply wrong. At best - assuming equivalent stats - you should only be +4 ahead of them to hit. If you get Combat Advantage, that's another +2 - which means they are walking around with 12s in their primary stat, which seems unlikely.
Damage: Your damage is also generally in the lead. A dagger will do 1d4+2d8+9 when you Sneak Attack, for an average of 20.5 damage. A Warlock will be doing an average of 1d10+1d6+5 damage with Eldritch Blast and Warlock's Curse, for an average of 14 damage. On the other hand, if they use Dire Radiance or Hellish Rebuke, they will deal 2d6+5 damage, plus another 1d6+5 damage if they trigger the power's condition, for an average of 20.5 as well. It is certainly harder for them to set up than for you - but they can use these attacks from ranged, while you likely need to go into melee to reliably get Sneak Attack.
Possible Damage: You mention how much possible damage you can do in a round, if you use Trick Strike, plus an Action Point for Torturous Strike. You end up potentially doing up to 63 damage! But that is a bit of an exaggeration - on average, hitting with those attacks will do 43.5 damage. (Still pretty good! Enough, in fact, to take out a single low-level enemy - though the resources you spent for it are somewhat significant ones.)
So, how do other classes compare to this?
A Warlock could use Flames of Phlegethos (3d10+5 +1d6 curse), and then Action Point for Vampiric Embrace (2d8+5.) His potential damage is 52, with his average damage at 38 - only 5 points behind you. Add in the 5 Ongoing damage from Flames of Phlegethos, and he seems to be comparing just fine, damage wise. You are still ahead on accuracy - but he's able to blast from 50' away, and can benefit from concealment, temporary hp and other protective measures.
A Ranger with Bastard Swords could use Jaws of the Wolf (2d10+5 x 2, +1d6 Hunter's Quarry), and then Action Points for Two-Fanged Strike (1d10+5 x 2, +4 Wisdom). His potentially damage is 89 damage! His average damage is 60 damage, putting him well in the lead for 'nova' damage. His accuracy is slightly behind yours, but his Daily Power deals half damage on misses, which makes up for that. Now, to be fair, your at will attacks are going to be more effective than his - but clearly his potential damage is pretty darn good.
A Wizard who casts Freezing Cloud (1d8+5 x 2) and uses an Action Point for Icy Terrain (1d6+5) is doing a potential 37 damage, or an average of 27.5 damage. Of course, his attacks can hit multiple targets - if he only hits two enemies, he is suddenly on par with the strikers, and if he hits three foes, he is well in the lead! Wizards can't always rely on hitting multiple enemies - but when they can, they definitely bring the pain.
We could run similarly numbers for other classes - clearly, any character with good stats and well-chosen powers can go nova and unleash a ton of damage in a short period of time.
Yet, clearly, you haven't seen this at your table - only you are the one doing really impressive amounts of damage. And while a rogue is likely to be the top damage dealer, he shouldn't be the only one.
But if the rest of your group is mainly non-strikers, with the only other striker being a warlock (who are the lowest damage striker, in general), and with you having rolled excellent stats (and they, perhaps, having rolled poor stats)... well, that might well be the reason why you seem the only real damage dealer. It also sounds like the enemies you are fighting are designed incorrectly - a level 9 solo should utterly destroy you, and even if you could kill it, it would certainly not take only a few turns. That, combined with the strange discrepancy in Defenses (with you hitting easily, and others having an incredibly difficult time of it) indicates your GM may be the one statting things incorrectly.
Finally, note that while the rogue is the highest damage class, it is also rather fragile - in order to reliably get Combat Advantage, you'll often need to move into melee. While you can get the occasional Sneak Attack by hiding and sniping, dodging around corners and so forth, that will likely only be possible once in a while. And once in melee, with low hitpoints and few healing surges, you are likely to run out of healing surges after only a few fights. And that is the tradeoff made for being a rogue - you can kill the enemy, but unfortunately, they can also kill you.
Rolling for stats in 4e is such a bad call [because the game is balanced towards the constriction of using a 22 pt. buy]. Maybe the other PCs didn't get 18+2 into their primary attack stat? Also, maybe the DM accidentally puts the casters' attacks against AC?
__________________ I think I've found some dice groups. Good stuff. This site said I have Str: 7, Dex: 11, Con: 8, Int: 13, Wis: 11, Cha: 15.
Last edited by That One Guy; 6th October 2008 at 07:42 PM..
Lets say I use my Day Power (Trick Strike) with a shuriken at someone I have combat advantage on, and decide to use sneak attack with it. Am I right to assume it looks like this: Attack: (+5, +3, +2 = [+10 to hit]) Vs (REFLEX) Damage: (3[W] + Dex [3d6+5 {+} 2d8+3])
You only add a +3 modifier to your sneak attack damage, while you can add your complete Strength modifier. This brings your damage to 3d6+5 {+} 2d8+4, and increases your maximum damage by one.
I also agree that your unbalanced stats cause you to deal a larger amount of damage than normal, but you also are a glass cannon: your other defenses and/or hit points won't save you if your target (or one of his friends) decides to come after you.
Also, by spending an action points and using a daily power, you spend most of your power during a single round. You won't be able to pull this very often.
In any case, you mention your wizards and warlocks need 15s, and you hit on a 5. Something about that is simply wrong. At best - assuming equivalent stats - you should only be +4 ahead of them to hit. If you get Combat Advantage, that's another +2 - which means they are walking around with 12s in their primary stat, which seems unlikely.
Problems with our game as discovered from this thread:
I, being the only experienced player, was the only person to have 'powered stats' IE: making my important stats the strongest, ignoring weak stats. My stats were 20 dex, 18 str, 12 con, 6 int, 8 wis, and 8 cha. I knew I wanted to play an ugly and stupid elf rogue. You NEVER see stupid and ugly elves. It was part of my glory imho. Our other characters didn't want any weak stats however, and put some of their weaker stats with their bonuses so they could have more 'all around stats'. ALL of our characters are within the point buy range (add up all stat mods, and make sure you are between +4 and +8).
Another thing is that I was the only one adding Combat Advantage. They figured they needed to be the ones "flanking" the target in order to get +2. I have explained CA comes to anyone hitting a flanked target now.
YET ANOTHER thing is that they completely forgot about action points.
And the last thing is that I was probably the only one wasting my encounter powers during the fights, and they were using at-will mostly powers. The only one who used a daily besides me was the wizard, and he used Acid Arrow against a single target....
I guess rogues aren't broken at all, just really good IMHO.
also P.S. ::
Quote:
In any case, you mention your wizards and warlocks need 15s, and you hit on a 5. Something about that is simply wrong. At best - assuming equivalent stats - you should only be +4 ahead of them to hit. If you get Combat Advantage, that's another +2 - which means they are walking around with 12s in their primary stat, which seems unlikely.
So I've got +5 +3 +2 to hit, and I 'convinced' the cleric to use that at will that hits and gives me +2 to hit, on me (hehe) so my to hit total was +13 (daggers)
The wizard didn't know about combat advantage and his wisdom stat was only a +3 so he had +4 to hit. One an 18 defense target, I'd need 5 to hit, and he would need 14 to hit, if we both targeted the same defense.
ALL of our characters are within the point buy range (add up all stat mods, and make sure you are between +4 and +8).
Not with more than one stat below nine you're not.
Quote:
Another thing is that I was the only one adding Combat Advantage. They figured they needed to be the ones "flanking" the target in order to get +2. I have explained CA comes to anyone hitting a flanked target now.
They were correct. p285. You have to be the one flanking in order to get Combat Advantage.
And if you're flanking, that means someone -else- is also getting the Combat Advantage from flanking.
Quote:
The wizard didn't know about combat advantage and his wisdom stat was only a +3 so he had +4 to hit. One an 18 defense target, I'd need 5 to hit, and he would need 14 to hit, if we both targeted the same defense.
Wizards don't tend to target 18 defenses at level 1. Those that target AC do, but wizards tend to be targetting defenses closer to 12, depending on power selection. That would mean he'd need an 8 to hit in that situation. And his wisdom stat is irrelevant, he's a damn wizard, so he uses Intellegence to attack with. +4 to hit the non-AC defenses of monsters you're facing at level 1 is more than fair.
Sounds to me like this group, including the DM, doesn't have a clue what they are doing with this system. This is not the sort of group that should be busting out roll-for-stats houserules and setting parties against level 8 monsters, because the DM doesn't have the experience with the system to know how problematic that would be.
Rolling for stats in D&D4 is like rolling for stats in Whitewolf. It makes no sense to do so, and just because you -can- doesn't mean you -should-.
Always try the system before you houserule the system.
1: we don't know all the rules and are trying to figure them out, were not trying to make house rules. If we weren't trying to make sure we got the rules or w/e right I wouldn't be here now, would I?
2: when we kept killing w/e level 1 and 2 things he threw at us, in like... 2-3 turns, and were so confident we even sent the devoted cleric out to melee targets just so i'd get my flanks, the DM decided to put higher-level mobs against us. this ended up making it so that while flanked i got +13 on npcs and everyone else (besides the ranger flanking with me) got like +5. This made it so that only i could hit and the game got really boring for everyone else.
3: how did the stats not fit into the +4/+8 method in the PHB?
18 = +4
18 = +4
12 = +1
08 = -1
08 = -1
06 = -2
total: +5, everyone elses totaled +6/+7
I agree that I don't like rolling for stats and would rather use point buy, but according to the PHB's system on rolling those are legal.
4: last night was our very first time trying 4e. Obviously we don't have any idea what were doing. we bought the books yesterday and tried it out last night.
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