General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
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Ryan Dancey
"D&D 3/3.5, by design, changes roughly every 5 levels. You may find that your group becomes comfortable in one of those 4 quartiles, or you may find that your group enjoys the changes of pace that happen when moving from quartile to quartile."
LvL
1-5: Capable but still just "insert race here"
6-10: An example of all that a "race" may unsuccessfully aspire to emulate
11-15: Semi-Divine God-Hero "This is the tale of the rage of Achilles"
16+: Divine Entity of Mythic Power "His voice was as a chorus of thunders and neither Gilgamesh nor Enkidu could look upon he who issued from the Cedar Palace in blazes of light and wrath at the first axe stroke."
Agree the mechanics is designed to create different experiences at different levels the power curve rises more quickly as levels increase. But I've always kind of liked that, I mean if you wanted to keep it all real and "gritty" put away the paper and go DO it. THIS IS FANTASY BE FANTASTIC, I get enough reality in the real world as is.
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Originally Posted by Sanzuo
We had memorable characters; especially Kregous the half-orc who became a legendary warrior/druid/woodcarver with odious personal habits/hygiene and a charming flying booger companion.
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Originally Posted by Jack of Shadows
I think we have a new definition for Monte Haulism.
Levels 1-5 = low, "gritty" fantasy (Conan, Black Company)
I have a bit of difficulty reconciling the Conan of Beyond the Black River or a Witch Shall Be Born with level 1-5. For that matter, the Conan of Hour of the Dragon, Sword and the Pheonix, Red Nails, and IIRC Queen of the Black Coast doesn't seem very 1-5 either.
Yeah, the whole Conan being the mightiest warrior in the whole wide world (hey, wasn't that a movie?) thing sort of implies he's higher level, but I get that the feeling of the world is low-level and gritty. That's also my favorite range to play. My group splits it up a little differently, based on our own preferences:
1-2: You can die at any time
3-6: Gritty, but not immediately fatal
7-10: Heroic Fantasy
11-14: Superheroes Game
15+: We've heard rumors about this.
The official breakdown is a little more, well, official, but this is pretty much how my group looks at it.
1-7 Characters face challenges on a dangerous field
8-14 Characters can, with the right preparations, dictate the venue for a challenge
15+ Imagination and preparedness matter far more than numbers
I'm pretty sure I made much the same observation here, a few years back.
Levels 1-5 = low, "gritty" fantasy (Conan, Black Company)
6-10 = heroic fantasy (LotR)
11-15 = superheroic fantasy (wuxia, Achilles)
16-20 = supers (four-colour)
I really have no interest whatsoever in the 3rd or 4th categories...
__________________ "AD&D is designed to be an amusing and diverting pastime, something which can fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participants desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously." - Gary Gygax (DMG, 1979)
"There are people who regard the RPG as something more than an amusing game, more than a most entertaining hobby. They really do need to get a life" - Gary Gygax (EN World, 2004)
I really have no interest whatsoever in the 3rd or 4th categories...
While that's probably true, I, for one, am very very glad that it's included in the ruleset. Granted, the high level stuff is different and could definitely use the same amount of loving that low level D&D gets, but, at least it's there.
Don't get me wrong, I played in the 1-10 sandbox for most of my gaming. But, it's nice to try something very different without having to change to a different game.
__________________ Best line from current campaign:
The pirates assembled on your deck are wearing an assortment of fishnet stockings, high heels and fashionable earrings. They brandish dim and dented cutlasses.
I double-dog-dare you to make your game sound super cool without comparing it to other editions. - paraphrased from Umbran.
Since my current campaign, which started at level 1 some 5 years ago, is on the brink of Epic levels, I can look back and say with complete honesty that I agree with Dancey's premise 100%.
Whether this is a function of the D&D ruleset, or my own mindset as a DM, I cannot say. But I know that the game I've been running has changed quite a bit every 5 levels or so.
(A) Levels 1-5: Save the mayor's daughter. Explore the Sunless Citadel. Travel to a remote town. Escape from the Underdark. Save a tribe of wemics from evil druid's influence.
(B) Levels 6-10: Become affiliated with various organizations. Establish a base of operations. Do some serious dungeon-crawling. Show to the world at large that you are a force to be reckoned with. Save a city from becoming an outpost for evil wizards.
(C) Level 11-15: Visit the setting's largest city. Start taking part in the game played by the setting's major players. Visit the Planes briefly. Enter the world's deadliest dungeon to defeat a major enemy. Pursue said enemy across half the world, defeat his generals, and finally confront him in an epic battle. Save the kingdom from being collateral damage in his evil campaign of terror.
(D) Level 16+: Start fulfilling the prophecy you learned of during period (B). Interact with deities and learn of their divine plans. Travel the Planes for extended periods of time. Save the world from being broken apart by the struggle between gods, and help restore the proper time flow, thus repairing the history.
I'm pretty sure I made much the same observation here, a few years back.
Levels 1-5 = low, "gritty" fantasy (Conan, Black Company)
6-10 = heroic fantasy (LotR)
11-15 = superheroic fantasy (wuxia, Achilles)
16-20 = supers (four-colour)
Hmm, the first two fit my Midwood campaign outline pretty damn well. At level 11, the main storyline will be over and I'll have to come up with something appropriate.
I have a bit of difficulty reconciling the Conan of Beyond the Black River or a Witch Shall Be Born with level 1-5. For that matter, the Conan of Hour of the Dragon, Sword and the Pheonix, Red Nails, and IIRC Queen of the Black Coast doesn't seem very 1-5 either.
Well, it's all a matter of scale. If Conan is LV5, and the entire rest of the world is made up of kobolds, commoners, and housecats, it can stay pretty gritty but still maintain his status as the Bestest In the World.
Just 'cuz there *are* 20 levels doesn't mean that anyone in the world *has* them all.
Still, I don't know Conan from a hole in the wall, so if he's cleaving through solid steel walls engineered by dwarves from a dimension beyond, then I guess it's no problem to reconcile him with 20th level uberheroism.
I think that knowing about the divisions in D&D play and that they are intended to be different would help people plan their campaigns: whether they need to slow down XP to keep in their comfort range, and what the style of game is easiest to run at what levels...
That's a good point MerricB. Really, I actually rather enjoyed WulfRatbane's threads about the sweet spot in D&D. This is just an adjunct to that idea. If you enjoy a certain style of play, then stick within the level range that applies. Otherwise, it will very quickly become very frustrating.
In other words, if you want to keep things low key, heroic fantasy, then single digit levels will likely fit your mold rather well. Add in the odd double digit NPC and Bob's your mother's brother.
OTOH, if you want to do something different, say planar adventures or Dark Sun, or even Scarred Lands which is a fairly high octane setting, then bumping the level curve upwards a bit might fit better.
__________________ Best line from current campaign:
The pirates assembled on your deck are wearing an assortment of fishnet stockings, high heels and fashionable earrings. They brandish dim and dented cutlasses.
I double-dog-dare you to make your game sound super cool without comparing it to other editions. - paraphrased from Umbran.
I think this scheme is slightly different for spellcasters or fightertypes. I'd say the 1-5, 6-10, 11-15 and 16+ fits rather well for fighters (types with full bab progression), but spellcasters usually get a major powerup a level earlier. perhaps for casters, it should look more like this 1-4, 5-8, 9-12, 13-16, 17+
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