General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
So after they made all the changes, people are still not happy?
Look, there are things that werent changed that I think should have been changed. So dont condescendingly say that since they deigned to make some changes that everyone has to be happy. That isnt the end of the analysis.
I think it was a mistake not to make some of the additional changes and some other things.
But that said, I now view the GSL as an acceptable license and I will be accepting it and using it and supporting 4E. That doesnt mean I have to like everything about it. I dont. But it is now acceptable to me for use.
Clark
__________________ Clark Peterson
Necromancer Games
www.necromancergames.com
I agree, actually. Much as I love and support all the other changes, I do wish this could've been dealt with as well. Sometimes, an adventure just needs an orc or a red dragon.
It's not even remotely a deal-breaker, though. (And it's not like there's no precedent, in gaming history, for modules that require you to flip open the MM now and again.) I don't find it to be that big of a deal; just a slight itch, really.
If occurs to me that this would be a great way to create synergy between the online initiative and 3PP licensees. For 3PP adventures using core monsters or NPCs with core powers, WotC could allow those publishers to use the encounter builder and character generator to create pre-generated, downloadable encounter sheets for their adventures. Insider subscribers could then log on and download ready-made encounter sheets for the adventure they just bought, with all the stats right there on each sheet.
It would allow 3PPs to make their adventures more user-friendly for their customers while increasing the usefulness and desirability of Insider for a whole new group of people.
anyone have the old one? i would like to do a word by word comparison.
What are you, a lawyer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouseferatu
Welcome to the Internet. May I take your coat?
Your method of coat-taking is BadWrongFun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orcus
But that said, I now view the GSL as an acceptable license and I will be accepting it and using it and supporting 4E. That doesnt mean I have to like everything about it. I dont. But it is now acceptable to me for use.
That's good news for those of us who love your stuff and are playing 4E.
If occurs to me that this would be a great way to create synergy between the online initiative and 3PP licensees. For 3PP adventures using core monsters or NPCs with core powers, WotC could allow those publishers to use the encounter builder and character generator to create pre-generated, downloadable encounter sheets for their adventures. Insider subscribers could then log on and download ready-made encounter sheets for the adventure they just bought, with all the stats right there on each sheet.
It would allow 3PPs to make their adventures more user-friendly for their customers while increasing the usefulness and desirability of Insider for a whole new group of people.
Except it would force me to buy DDI? Not too happy about that...
At least some of the 3PP's are saying it's acceptable (Looking forward to Necromancer Games )and we can get some more products out there.
It's just the impression I get is "This is a great improvement, it's fixed lots of problems! But you won't catch me signing it because it's not good enough."
There doesn't seem to be very many of those and even if there were...so what? It's a business decision and some people are more adventurous (or reckless depending on one's perspective) than others. There are people's livelihoods on the line and a single bad decision can sink a small company...so I can hardly fault those that are still wary even in light of the much better GSL.
Of course, that's easy for me to say when all but one of the publishers I care about have signed onto the GSL.
I agree, actually. Much as I love and support all the other changes, I do wish this could've been dealt with as well. Sometimes, an adventure just needs an orc or a red dragon.
It's not even remotely a deal-breaker, though. (And it's not like there's no precedent, in gaming history, for modules that require you to flip open the MM now and again.) I don't find it to be that big of a deal; just a slight itch, really.
I fought hard for that change (just ask Scott, I think I bent his ear for nearly an hour on this issue alone some months ago). It makes sense to make the change. But we lost that one. Like you, I wish it would have been fixed but its not a deal breaker.
Scott, if you are reading this, thanks and good work. I put my faith and trust in you and I knew you would deliver becuase you believe in doing what is best for D&D no matter whether it is hard or unpopular or whether you get blasted on these boards (many of whom here owe him an apology for saying it wouldnt happen), and I firmly believe a vibrant 3P support is good for D&D. So thank you. You are the man!
Clark
__________________ Clark Peterson
Necromancer Games
www.necromancergames.com
I just pointed out as objectively as I could the potential risks in the new GSL for businesses who want to use it.
I have to question the "objectively" part. It would seem pretty standard, if being objective, to mention that the first two parts of your criticism of the license - that WotC can change it at any time or cancel it - are quite standard clauses for many such licenses, including the OGL and the licenses for most every videogame open to modding.
Except it would force me to buy DDI? Not too happy about that...
Not at all. If you didn't want to subscribe to the DDI, you could still use those adventures, you'd just have to own the book the adventure references in order to look up the statblock or power (which is what you have to do now if you don't have a DDI subscription). It's just that DDI subscribers would get the added bonus of being able to download an expansion for their 3PP adventure with all the monsters and powers that the 3PPs can't reprint on reference sheets. Theoretically, DDI subscribers could do this on their own, anyway. My idea is to let the 3PPs do the work for their customers and then distribute the reference sheets through the DDI.
The revised GSL is a huge improvement and includes many of the changes and suggestions that I specifically, and I am sure others as well, have been calling for for a long time.
One of the biggest changes is the "opt out" clause which the old GSL didnt have. In other words, if they change something you are bound by it. Now, if they change something you can opt out. Can they still change things? Sure, but that is the nature of just about any license and it was the nature of the d20 license that we all used for many years.
Plus, think about this. As I told Scott--wouldnt it be cool if the first revsion was an expansion that allowed us to do more with more freedoms and more content? what would the naysayers say then? Shure, they "could" make it more restrictive, but look what they have done.
This is a big WIN for all involved.
Clark
*Shrug* See? I told ya not to take it as legal advice.
__________________ ~Joe
If you like what I said, throw me some XP. I was a goblin sharpshooter for far too long.
I have to question the "objectively" part. It would seem pretty standard, if being objective, to mention that the first two parts of your criticism of the license - that WotC can change it at any time or cancel it - are quite standard clauses for many such licenses, including the OGL and the licenses for most every videogame open to modding.
Like I said earlier though, I don't know anything about this area of law. Hence my many disclaimers, and Clark's pointing out the crappiness of my BUSINESS analysis. I just read the GSL, and on its face it says what I said it does. If they are standard clauses in these kinds of contracts, and you feel comfortable with them, then accept the GSL.
Clark is in the great position to analyze the contract as a lawyer and also as a businessperson in the field, to better determine the likelihood based on standard business practices of the negative possibilities written into the GSL becoming realities. He is going to sign the thing, so we know how he feels about the chances of those possibilities becoming realities. Not to defend lawyering too much, I know that's a losing cause, but a good lawyer points out every legal possibility to the business/client, and the client weighs the possibilities and risks v. rewards, as I said earlier, and determines a course of action. We're professional naysayers.
__________________ ~Joe
If you like what I said, throw me some XP. I was a goblin sharpshooter for far too long.
I wish people would stop saying that like it is true. That is not true, no matter how many times people say it.
I for one appreciate the fact that it was as open as it was. Thanks to that, we have True20, C&C, Babylon 5 RPG, Conan, and many, many others. On the other hand making the OGL as open as it was allowed for the games I just mentioned, which did not require a person to own any WotC books to play them. If you can make a convincing argument on how that's good for WotC from a business standpoint then I'll agree with you that it wasn't too good.
__________________ Darrin Drader
Freelance Writer/Game Designer
Previously posting as Whisperfoot
I for one appreciate the fact that it was as open as it was. Thanks to that, we have True20, C&C, Babylon 5 RPG, Conan, and many, many others. On the other hand making the OGL as open as it was allowed for the games I just mentioned, which did not require a person to own any WotC books to play them. If you can make a good argument on how that's good for WotC from a business standpoint then I'll agree with you that it wasn't too good.
Perhaps it might be fair to say that at the time it was created it served everyone well, including WOTC. I don't know, I have no idea what the market was like back then. I mean, if WOTC would have stopped producing D&D without the OGL rejuvinating the market, then it was good. Again, I have no idea what the market was like.
To the extent that it created competitors for WOTC, then I on't know how good it is for WOTC. Expecially in a worsening economy, when there are only so many RPG dollars to go around, I don't see how it can be good for a company to have competing brands taking those dollars.
__________________ ~Joe
If you like what I said, throw me some XP. I was a goblin sharpshooter for far too long.
Not to defend lawyering too much, I know that's a losing cause, but a good lawyer points out every legal possibility to the business/client, and the client weighs the possibilities and risks v. rewards, as I said earlier, and determines a course of action. We're professional naysayers.
Fair enough, sir. And no need to defend lawyering to me, I have nothing but respect for the profession.
)and we can get some more products out there.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
