Playing God: The Divine Control of Natural and Spiritual Forces

[Jack7]

This thread is, if not forked from my other thread, The Magical Control of Natural Processes, then it is at least related to the same general ideas expressed in that thread.

I’m a Christian. I say that not because I intend this thread to be a specifically religious thread, though I don’t see how religious and spiritual issues can be avoided as being discussed in context of the what that means in-game and in regards to the thread subject matter. But because it might give you some idea of how I developed these ideas (in this case I’m speaking specifically of my D&D setting) and what these ideas might reflect for the game. For several reasons. First of all my faith plays a big part in how moral dilemmas are written into various campaigns, adventures, and scenarios, as well as how moral decisions are addressed as part of the storyline, in my D&D/fantasy game setting. Secondly because God is a part of the game directly. That is to say that there are pagan gods and mythological gods in the game, but God (as considered in the more modern sense) is also directly active in the game and in my world, and in my setting. (That is God is part of the cultural, religious, societal, and philosophical background of the milieu in the same way that other aspects of life are – the setting is after all, at least in the human world, centered in Constantinople and the Byzantine Empire circa 800 AD.) And lastly since God is directly active in the setting then this changes the way Clerics operate and how Divine “magic” (which in my setting is called Thaumaturgy, the Greek word for “miracle-working”) functions. Which is what I intend to speak about in this thread. Or one of the things anyway.

I gave the background information about my Christian faith and how God influences the milieu so that the reader can understand something about how this affects Divine Magic in-game. Because I’ve developed a very different system than is normally employed in-game, with real world religion fertilizing how game religion functions in my milieu. But then again as I’ll discuss in a moment, thinking on game religion has also given me real world ideas that I find interesting and worth pursuing.

I do however make this disclaimer: I do not intend to discuss real world religion and I hope no one else does either with the intention of starting an argument. If you do then you will no doubt get the thread shut down, which I hope doesn’t happen, and you will have missed the whole point of the thread anyway. The point of the thread is to discuss the ways real world religion and spiritual matters can and might affect game religion and spiritual matters and to possibly come up with some new and interesting spiritual ideas to pursue in both the real world and in-game. But the point is not to argue doctrine, or get into heated discussions, or anything like that. If that happens then I’m sorry and don’t really want to see that. I can’t stop you if that is your intent, but I hope it won’t happen and personally I won’t encourage you to engage in that kind of thing. After all these are just speculations and ideas, not meant to be “positions,” and even if they were I personally feel that such matters can be debated in an interesting and stimulating way without hostilities breaking out. I hope I'm just barking at the moon by saying that. But we'll see. In the end though I’ll have to leave that up to you guys.

Now tonight I went to revival at our church. The guest pastor gave an excellent sermon, as he has most of the week, and while sitting there pondering what he was saying I was also running through my mind Ben’s contest entry for the Conjunction contest as well as my own recent game design effort, Transformations, which is based on my Constantinople setting.

Anywho with these things and other points running through my mind I began to think about Ben’s setting involving True Speech (which is based upon a real world religious concept that God controls things by knowing their True Name, and that by extension, it is possible for others to similarly control things if they also know the True Names of those things) and how that might work.

That is to say I began a sort of spiritual contemplation of this question, “Well, if God does control things through ‘Word-control,’ and by knowing the True Names of things, and that implies knowing things as they ‘really are,’ then how exactly would that work or function? What would be the method of operation, if you will, through which such things worked?” So as I was musing on the matter it suddenly occurred to me (having a background in physics – I typically, though not always, think in scientific terms on spiritual matters to better make them understandable to myself) that the Name might not be a Name at all (as we typically think of names, as mere nomenclature, though it could be encapsulated or symbolized in a name), but a resonance frequency peculiar to that object, form of energy, or creature (in the case of biological beings). And if God could trigger that peculiar resonance, through whatever means employed, then God could cause things to react in certain ways. Maybe even react in different ways by subtle variations in the resonance field, such as how magnetic fields can be manipulated by overlapping fields of resonance, or dissonance.

With biological or living matter it occurred to me that already existing resonance fields would be constantly active, making manipulation of living creatures far more problematic than resonant manipulation of inanimate matter.

For instance living matter might either intentionally or unintentionally radiate either a static or counter-active resonance field peculiar to itself that would make it harder for God to align to the resonance frequency of that creature or being. In the real world this would present certain problems and in-game it might also have certain measurable effects. Then again certain other creatures might have naturally harmonious resonance biological fields that make “Divine influence” easy or almost effortless to achieve. And in game that might have measurable and definite benefits. (In game it might be anything from alignment resonance to shared objectives. In the real world it might be achieved through holiness or humbleness.)

Since part of the sermon I attended was on prayer it also occurred to me, “is prayer a potential form of resonance manipulation?” (Now in the real world I’m not speculating that God is controllable or controlled by prayer in the sense that inanimate or even living matter might or might not be controlled by resonance field manipulation, but I am saying that powerful prayers may have a sort of resonance that makes such prayers far more potent in comparison to less effective prayers. It’s just a speculation. What that might mean in-game and in regards to Clerics and God I’ll discuss a little later as the post goes on.)

Sidenote: I had originally intended to discuss Prayer, Meditation, and Contemplation, as well as Game Prayer, Game Meditation, and Game Contemplation effects upon Clerics and others in this post, but I suspect to prevent this from getting too long for one post, I’ll just hit on the Prayer ideas first of all. Come back to meditation and contemplation later on.

Now I like prayer. Engage in it often. Probably not as much as I should though. But I think prayer has definite pragmatic and beneficial effects other than the merely spiritual ones (I’m not saying that dismissively) that I think are, generally speaking, most often naturally considered. For one thing prayer is an enormously beneficial problem-solving tool. Prayer allows one to turn a problem over and over in one’s mind and to look at a problem projected from a “Divine or wholly Objective viewpoint,” rather than just from a personal or subjective viewpoint. And that can be immensely beneficial in regards to resolving the problem. That’s just one of the more practical benefits I see to the practice of prayer.

But that got me to thinking. What if in-game one did away altogether with the direct association between prayer and “spell” or prayer and “power” as regards the Cleric (and by extension others) and instead made prayer in-game function far more like it does in real life? Prayer then would not be used to “trigger effects” or “manifest powers” but would rather be used to create an on-going resonance field that amplified (if working properly) all other capabilities a Cleric could manifest. Or for that matter a Paladin manifested. Or for anyone else. After all the sincere prayer of a character who is not a Cleric at all might be as effective, or even more so, than a Cleric at any given point, or in any given situation, depending upon other factors. Clerics then wouldn’t be the only ones, or at least part of a small and basically limited group, to whom prayer has enormous potential benefits. The benefits or prayer would be open to any and all.

Prayers could help solve problems, give dreams and visions, attune events, align allies, help convert enemies, etc. Just to name a few potential advantages. And such advantages would not be one-time spell or power effects but prayer would produce on-going and long-term benefits. But such advantages would not be limited to Clerics though a cleric might have other spiritual advantages, or his prayers might be especially potent depending upon the particular nature of that specific cleric and the circumstances in which he is involved. But prayer would become divorced from detailed spell and power effects and instead become more nebulous as to effect, but also capable of a far wider range of potential benefits. Prayer would become less a means to a “wish-list of demands or desires” and more a source of on-going power and capability.

(Rituals then, combined with prayers, would I think become far more interesting. As well as potentially far more potent.)

Now, as far as my setting goes thaumaturgical miracles and powers are not within the purview of the Cleric. Rather what happens in game as far as miracles go is up to God. (The DM has to play God of course, but then again the DM has to play gods, and others as well, who have power to influence things. Playing God is no different in theory but it may be very different in practice. As I’ll demonstrate.)

That is to say, clerics ask for certain things to happen, make requests and pray. But it is God who determines what actually occurs. Because God doesn’t function like a typical D&D god, a granter of specific spells, powers, and benefits in exchange for loyal service. And God does not necessarily “grant requests as made.” At all. For instance sometimes (and over time I’ve worked out a system for this, though sometimes I disregard the “System” and Play God by winging it depending on the situation) a cleric’s prayer may be granted exactly as requested at exactly the moment desired. Then again a prayer may be granted and spell or power may manifest at a later time or at a different time. A prayer may be directed towards one individual or target and end up apparently not affecting that individual at all, but a different individual or group of people. Sometimes prayers may seem to be ignored or not answered, and at other times a different miracle or spell may occur than the one requested. At still other times a spell or miracle may occur but in a far less potent form than what was requested. And at other times “True Miracles” may occur in which a certain spell like effect is requested and instead a significantly more powerful miracle occurs than was requested or even thought capable or possible (perhaps beyond “level capability”), or a miracle may occur without even a request having been made. Some unlooked for or unanticipated advantage occurs even if never requested. Maybe not even previously thought of or considered by the players. The point is a God has his own agenda, which the cleric (or anyone else for that matter) may or may not understand. God is assumed to have everyone’s best interest at heart, but that doesn’t mean he will in any way act or react as anticipated.

I find this a much, much more interesting way for clerics to relate to and role-play in relationship to God (they don’t control Divine power or favor, but rather they are the conduit for spiritual power [dunamis], force, or action). And my players seem to like this a lot better. And I gotta admit playing God is far more fun, interesting, innovative, and exciting (not to mention unpredictable) than playing a god.

But as I said, after tonight and reconsidering how prayer might function in relation to the larger spiritual aspects of cleric and lay character capabilities, it also occurred to me that I should completely revamp how prayer works and what it actually does.

Well, I had a few more notes and ideas on this subject that I made tonight, but I’m kinda tired and worn out right now.

I’ll take this up later and of course feel free to discuss these matters in relationship to your own ideas and in relationship to how your handle spiritual and divine matters in your own games.

And I’m certainly comfortable in using real world parallels to make your points easier to understand, or to illustrate your ideas. I just ask that you avoid getting mad at others for their ideas. You may or may not agree with the ideas of others, and you can debate those ideas as far as I’m concerned, but in a civilized and interesting way. That’s my only request.

Well, I’m gonna hit the sack.

Later dudes… and dudettes.

 

[Kunimatyu]

I think you need to come to Circvs Maximvs (Circvs Maximvs - Powered by vBulletin) so that we can properly discuss your ideas.

 

[Jack7]

I'm gonna take up Meditation next. Contemplation afterwards and then move onto other matters. I hope this thread can be used for ideas in which to radically re-address, if not outright reform the Cleric, and how he operates and what his relationship is to the Divine, and so forth and so on. Same for lay-characters.

In order to do that though I thought I might provide a little background to see how I look at these things and how I define them, and so what they mean when I'm talking about them.

Now I personally was taught meditation by a Yogin. It was my first experience with meditation and I was taught to concentrate wholly and exclusively upon a single thought, mantram, or target. Later the intention was to go from a single object of meditation to no object, or no thought at all, then on to God. I learned Raja Yoga which taught you to get "your thoughts out of the way," and to suppress your ego as an interference between you and God. (Your thoughts being sort of like mental and psychological static interfering with clear perception and reception.) From there I went on to Christian meditation (which works basically the same way but has an interesting twist upon the Divine-human interface) and I still practice meditation but not nearly so much as prayer, I reckon because it takes so much more energy and focus (in the sense of time) and I'm very busy with various things. (You can pray anytime and in any state or condition, but concentrated meditation takes some "prep-work" in order to clear the mind and relax the body. You can pray "on the run" but mediation takes a certain centering and fixing of yourself in a still relationship to your environment. So in that sense I think of mediation as a sort of "Ritual" and that's how I'd handle it in-game.) I find meditation extremely useful and wish I had more time to devote to it, but right now, I don't. I guess I've always thought of meditation as an escape from the world, as prayer as an attempt to change the world, and as contemplation as a method of examining the world. As a personal observation I don't think my personal spiritual life would be nearly as rich if I only practiced prayer, or only meditation, or only contemplation. They each serve different functions for me.

Contemplation on the other hand, as compared to meditation, is to me far more elide-ranging. I see contemplation as "seeing connections" between things in a sort of "telescopic scope or field of vision." For lack of a better term. Contemplation takes you from "here-to-there" and I use it as one of my main "thinking techniques" both for religious and spiritual purposes, and for scientific observations, when I am inventing, and problem solving, etc. It is different from "just thinking" for there is an underlying and intentional purpose, but it is a sort of specialized method of "contemplating things."

Now for some personal definitions to differentiate things so that a little later on I can address these things in-game and in relation to the Cleric, to God in the game, and to other character "classes" or professions.

These definitions will be loose and illustrative rather than hard and fixed.

Prayer - prayer is like "talking to God." To me technologically speaking it is similar to a telephone. Of course every conversation has different effects, including effects you often don't realize until after the conversation is over and think back upon what really occurred. For instance it is sometimes like having a conversation with a person and something gets said which you think seems to mean one thing or imply one thing and then only later on do you realize it might have meant something entirely different, or at least much more than you had originally assumed. Prayer is sometimes like a set of parables, or a riddle in disguise, but then again meditation can work that way too.

Meditation - is fixed and highly focused. It is like, in certain cases anyways, "listening to God," versus trying to culminate something on your own part. Technologically speaking and as far as how it works I think of it as being like a microscope. A device or technique that allows you to examine in minute detail the underlying structures, operations, or nature of a thing. But it is a "still technique." For lack of a better expression it slows down or stops time. And sort of divorces you from the world or puts you in another world.

Contemplation - is like thinking about the ramifications of what you said in prayer and what God might be implying in reply through meditation. Technologically speaking to me it is like a telescope or a powerful set of binoculars. (Sometimes night-vision, X-ray, or infra-red/ultraviolet binoculars. You are "scanning the horizon" and the world looking at distant things and attempting to bring them "up close" to better perceive them. You aren't examining things in a fixed way, or passing information, or even receiving information, but you are "contemplating" in a larger or wider sense.


With those definitions in place, and my definitions don't have to be exactly like yours (I'm not fixing the terms), they are merely working definitions for purposes of what I'm gonna say next, I'm gonna move on to how I think matters like Meditation and Contemplation can be addressed in game by both Clerics and laity or lay-characters (non-clerics or paladins or so forth in relation to in-game spiritual or divine matters).

But I also didn't wanna start talking about these matters in later posts and then have people say to me, "exactly what do you mean by saying that about prayer, or meditation, or contemplation?" or, "that's not what I think prayer or meditation means at all." So rather than having to re-explain what I mean each time it is possibly discussed, my definitions are already laid out. You can suggest your own of course.

And you might disagree entirely with me on definitional aspects of the terms, but, at least you'll have some idea of what I mean in order to compare it against what you mean.

I've already, in the above post, talked about prayer and how I think it works both in real life and how I have or am gonna change how it functions in-game. Now I'll probably move next to Meditation and related matters.

One more definition while I'm thinking about it. Psychological. When I say psychological most of the time I won't be referring to modern descriptions of either the mind or behavior. Rather I'll use it like the Greeks did, to imply soul. So when I say something like, "I think meditation in-game would have this psychological effect," I don't mean a behavioral effect, or a mental effect, though it might possibly include those things. I mean psyche, as in soul. If I mean an effect upon the mind or behavior, such as better concentration, or being relaxed and untroubled, then I'll probably say mental effect or behavioral effect.

Anyways, all of that definitional prelude is out of the way now, and so next I'll take up the subject matter again.

And when I do I'm going to try to use how I see these various spiritual practices, and others, to radically reorganize the Cleric (and other classes).

I think you need to come to Circvs Maximvs (Circvs Maximvs - Powered by vBulletin) so that we can properly discuss your ideas.

By the way, I'm not ignoring your suggestion Kun, but I'm not familiar with the Circus Maximus and as far as I'm concerned, here is fine enough if people remain interested and can discuss these matters without getting all unnecessarily riled up, and argumentative in a hostile manner (and I suspect they can). That is to say I think they probably can properly discuss these things right here. I have "faith" in them. If they do though go at each other hammer and tongs then I'll probably suggest the thread get shut down as it won't really be going anywhere productive. But if these ideas can be discussed openly and in a relaxed manner then I reckon we won't really have any real problems. But I'll keep what you said in mind. Just in case.

 

[Jack7]

I’ve been thinking a lot lately about this general subject matter. I’ve recently started re-reading The Power of Positive Thinking and it has given me a number of new ideas.

As for the real world it has made me reconsider certain prayer techniques I practice, and to consider some new ones. Especially the thought of “deep prayer” and “big prayer.” Which reminds me a lot of the idea of “perfect prayer” as expressed in the Way of a Pilgrim.

I’ve also been re-reading Napoleon Hill’s Keys to Success (along with my family) in the evenings and it has made me want to retake up my practice of meditation in a far more consistent and regular fashion (similar to when I was a kid).

As for what this would imply in game techniques I thought I already had a good idea of how I would proceed in reforming clerical characters, as well as how I expressed the relationship between God and his various types of followers in the game I am writing, Transformations.

But these new sources and thoughts have made me recognize more deeply the possibilities, both in real life and in-game.

For instance, as regards the cleric, or any sincere or devout follower, I am considering the techniques I’ve already spoken about as having different and yet wide effects. But as for the cleric, hermit, monk, and paladin these practices would be far more consistent and regular. That is to say a soldier or fighter might practice and gain benefit from prayer, but a cleric, for obvious reasons, would practice prayer consistently and therefore draw both more regular and more powerful benefit from such a practice. And of course a fighter might or might not practice prayer, but most would probably not practice meditation or contemplation regularly, if at all, (though some Combatant classes, like the Samurai, would naturally practice meditation) also for obvious personality and professional reasons. And by contrast you would have those professions for whom a wide range of spiritual practices are natural expressions of their nature. A monk for instance would naturally and to some degree be very likely to practice prayer, meditation, and contemplation all three as a natural part of their “spiritual repertoire.”

As for the possible benefits of these three technique forms, well, I’ve already detailed some. But I’m gonna now detail some more, although these are really just developmental sketch notes.

Now as I’ve already said in my game, and in my reforms of the clerical profession (class), God, not the cleric will control how divine power and miracles are allocated, and how such power works, is employed, or dispersed. The cleric will act more as a conduit of focus for both the intended desire of change in the world, and for how that change might or might not be manifested (the form of manifestation - God being the ultimate arbiter, but the cleric, or monk, or paladin, etc. being the “advocate” of a certain desire for a certain type of action occurring within the world.)

(For the moment I am going to define a miracle thus; the desired miracle is the positive change wished for by someone or some group in the world, the actual miracle is how that change is really manifested when it seems extremely unlikely that no real benefit could develop from a given set of circumstances. That is the desired miracle and the actual miracle can vary in both nature and effect, and that is the key difference between my reformed cleric and the cleric of D&D “magic.” A cleric can desire and work to accomplish a particular miracle, and the cleric can have an idea of how the miracle ought to occur from his point of view, but neither God nor the way he fashions or devises or creates the miracle are limited to that theoretical paradigm. The miracle is not limited to either the desires and wishes of the cleric, or to his imagination or understanding of the situation.)

That being said I intend to give the “divine classes” access to at least three important techniques of “functional operation.” These obvious techniques will be prayer, meditation, and contemplation. I won’t limit the clerics or others to these three techniques, there will also be things like Divine Rituals and Sacraments, but as for how Miracles are addressed, that is to say “Divine Magic,” and as to how the cleric operates, the standard Technique Types will be Prayer, Meditation, and Contemplation. Now of course specific forms of meditation, prayer, and contemplation are possible, with slightly variant effects. Just as there are different forms of Sacraments: Baptism, Marriage, Communion, etc. So when I say Prayer is a technique type there can be many variations of sub-forms within that type and I probably will not attempt to detail them all and instead leave that up to the milieu designers, DMs, and players to describe for their own setting. Instead I’ll just suggest a few possibilities. Prayer, Meditation, and Contemplation will be definite game technique types, but I’ll probably avoid saying, these are the various sub-types of prayer, meditation, and contemplation possible within your game. That would limit setting flexibility and experimentation.


I’ve already detailed above many of the fundamental advantages to the technique of prayer. Prayer will be far less a direct “spell effect” or a “manifestation of a miracle” and far more a technique, depending upon the level of success or failure of the prayer effort, and a method of amplifying or even altering miraculous effects. You might think of it as a power control or regulation system. Successful prayer can greatly amplify how God expresses miracles in the world. Or prayer might alter effects, or might even suppress effects. Let me cite an example: A plague is ravishing Constantinople. The wish of the people, and of the PC cleric might be to end the plague. A successful prayer might have different effects. A “True Miracle” might occur in which the plague simply disappears altogether, maybe practically overnight. Or, a cure might be found, miraculous or natural. Then you could have other types of smaller miracles. The plague might become rapidly suppressed, or the rate of those surviving after infection might drastically increase. So that the plague organism becomes far less effective and deadly, or so that resistance and immunity increase rapidly.

Miracles therefore would not be as the result of prayer, but rather prayer would, depending on the level of success, regulate the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of the expression of the miracle along a continuum of manifold possibilities.


Meditation however would act more as a psychological and spiritual “lubricant,” for lack of a better term, of the dynamic powers of the cleric. Of course there are the obvious and natural effects of meditation. Greater state of relaxation, near immunity to panic or psychologically altering circumstances (meditation would be resistance against spells attempting to inspire panic or distress or despair or fear), better rates of recovery from injury and disease for the cleric himself. Possibly also for comrades or others for whom the cleric is advocating or assisting.

Then again meditation could have other effects, not so obvious, such as flashes of insight, intuition, or information about something previously unnoticed. For instance a rogue takes up meditation. At night on an adventure, right before going to sleep he decides he will meditate for half an hour. It calms his mind and body and possibly helps him recover lost hit points more rapidly. But while meditating he also realizes that earlier in the day he may have noticed a secret door without consciously understanding what he had seen at the time. He has a reverse “flash of insight” regarding something he had previously seen but not recognized or not understood for what it was. (This kind of effect has often occurred to me personally while meditating.)

For another example. A monk meditates right before having an important meeting with a prominent politician or nobleman. As a result the monk’s mind is relaxed and calm and his senses are highly tuned. Because his mind is in that state he quickly comes to the decision that the person with whom he is speaking is lying and being deceptive. He has a “flash of intuition” into the “character” of the other person as a result of having meditated and as a result of having a “mind open to all possibilities” in preparation for the event.

This means meditation could have both enactive and reactive effects, depending on how it is approached and under what circumstances. I’ll talk later about meditation in more detail in another post.

But because of potential effects like this I also intend to later detail the effects of meditation and contemplation upon, what in the game is called “psionic” (though I hate that term in relation to fantasy games) powers. Meditation and contemplation would have natural effects upon psychaec abilities and capabilities, as probably would prayer under certain circumstances, as an overlapping effect. I’ll take that up later though in another section or thread, though I see the natural overlap between spiritual and psychological techniques on the one hand, and possible mental and psychaec techniques on the other.


Contemplation would be primarily, though not exclusively both a problem solving tool, as well as a method of innovation and invention. For clerics this would primarily, though not exclusively (as I’ll demonstrate in a moment), be a tool for spiritual and psychological innovation and invention, but for others it could lead to other forms of invention and innovation. Through contemplation of the human body, anatomy, biology, and/or of medicine for instance a monk might become much, much more skillful at diagnosing disease and at treating disease and injury. Therefore greatly increasing his facility as a healer. (By the same token a Bard, deeply contemplating psychology might become a far more skillful manipulator of “charismatic influence,” as well as by contemplating famous poets and musicians, a much, much more effective poet and musician.) Contemplation could serve as a kind of “bridging technique or point of focus” that allows the cleric to gain a greater understanding of how spiritual affairs relate to mundane and worldly affairs. (As might meditation in some cases.) It would also likely lead in my opinion, as happened in real life, to the development of a sub-class of clerics who specialized in proto-science and invention as was the case in our world, where many of the original scientists and technologists in the West were monks, priests, clerics, and devout men. How I’m going to express those benefits directly in game I am still contemplating (sorry, couldn’t resist the pun) but I have some general ideas.

What I want to do with Transformations is to create a series of overlapping “effects” and “techniques” which can lead, through a process of individual player character recombinations, to a series of expressions so complex that it will be nearly impossible to pursue all possible combinations of potentiality in any given person (character), as is the case in real life. That is I want to create a system (eventually for all classes, or professions) in which individuals can create their own individual skills and capabilities through recombining various techniques and effects and therefore individuals can be constantly creating and inventing their own “personal applications” as to how they encounter and react to the world (and/or first act upon it). In this way characters become highly individualized, not based upon a set of “power-choices,” but based upon the natural personality and character expression of the character as to what interests they pursue in their life. But I’m still working on that. The reform of the Cleric and how he functions is sort of my “prototype” design for such future potentials regarding the other professions.

I’ll continue this later when I have the spare time.