4e / GSL Lets try this again- 4E FR Campaign Guide

[JeffB]

My last thread got closed and I told PC I'd make sure I worded my posts in the future with less "sarcasm" (though it's totally against my nature )

I'm looking for info on the new 4E Realms campaign Guide. I"M NOT LOOKING FOR A DEBATE ON THE MERITS OF THE CURRENT EDITION OF THE REALMS- IF YOU WANT TO DO THAT PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE START YOUR OWN THREAD.


I've read a couple of decent reviews but I still have some questions.

The kind of info I'm looking for is:

1) Just how useful the FRCG is for a DM starting a FR game (is it enough info, too little, whats glossed over, what is talked about too much, that kind of thing- I realize this will be opinion, please discuss without delving into 3E/4E is better).

2) What are the Major changes that have happened to Faerun over the 100 years that have lapsed. I've heard some Gods died, and magic is totally different- who and how? what about the organizations like the Harpers, Zhentarim, and Red Wizards? How (if at all) have they changed? Is Cyric still around, or is Bane back to being top-dog?

3) Is the Player's Guide much of a neccessity as far as flavor/fluff text goes (i.e. are there details on regions/peoples/happenings that are not present in the campaign guide? or is it mostly crunch?

4) I was told that the 4E Realms is pretty much devoid of the canonical NPC's (Elminster, Khelben, etc) - Not even mentioned in the book? is that the case?

5) Poster map-is one included?

Of course I'm not looking for someone to type out alll the nitty gritty details but rather a general overview of the differences between 3E Faerun and 4E Faerun (and again, I'm not looking for anyone to DEBATE the differences-just looking for what makes new different from old)


EDIT- wanted to say I'm fam with 1E, 2E, and up to the first 3.0 FR products- I'm not familiar with any changes via Novels or such during the 3.x era

TIA!

[Crothian]

1) Just how useful the FRCG is for a DM starting a FR game

It will be useful since the world has changed. The Spellplagues have happened and the world moves on.

3) Is the Player's Guide much of a neccessity as far as flavor/fluff text goes (i.e. are there details on regions/peoples/happenings that are not present in the campaign guide? or is it mostly crunch?

More crunch, but what it does do is present the players with info that they would need. Having a player read this book would be fine but havign a player read the campaign guide might not be.

4) I was told that the 4E Realms is pretty much devoid of the canonical NPC's (Elminster, Khelben, etc) - Not even mentioned in the book? is that the case?

Not mentioned at all that I saw.

5) Poster map-is one included?

Yes

[JeffB]

Originally Posted by Crothian

1) Just how useful the FRCG is for a DM starting a FR game

It will be useful since the world has changed. The Spellplagues have happened and the world moves on.

Thanks for the help- as far as question 1- I was more interested in the actual utility of the book disregarding the fact that the "world has changed".

Are all the regions detailed?

Are some only mentioned briefly or not at all?

Is the text littered with plot hooks/adventure seeds, or matter of fact info like "X is ruled by Y, its a land of agriculture and juts up against the Z mountains which are infested with Goblinoids"

I'd go take a look-see at the local bookstore, however they don't have one in stock at this time.

[Crothian]

THere are lot of regions detailed, I didn't go through and make a check list to see if all of them were. I found plenty of plot hooks in there. It is an overview and not a lot of detail. It is just under 300 pages and the Realms are a big place.

[JeffB]

Originally Posted by Crothian

THere are lot of regions detailed, I didn't go through and make a check list to see if all of them were. I found plenty of plot hooks in there. It is an overview and not a lot of detail. It is just under 300 pages and the Realms are a big place.

Cool. I appreciate your help. That sounds about what I'm looking for as far as "detail" goes.

Would you say that like in past books/boxed sets that The Dalelands/Cormyr is the focus and gets a bit more attention than most areas?

[La Bete]

Yup, Cormyr and the Dalelands look to get a bit more love than other areas - I think I've also seen some DDI stuff for Cormyr

[jbear]

Cyric has been imprisoned by the other gods, due to his part in murdering Mystra and thus causing the Spellplague that devastared Toril.

This has been a big source of inspiration in my actual campaign.

There are no iconic NPC's. The world has moved on. The world is awaiting new heroes.

If I recall correctly each region has 2 or 3 plot hooks.

There is also a section that gives a description of the different organisations which pose a threat. This includes the Church of Bane and the Zhentarim. Each organisation details some henchmen or NPC leaders.

The focus is actually on Loudwater, a frontier town which is inland from the Sword Coast. The only adventure released is in the same area. But Cormyr and the Dalelands get more pages than the other regions.

[Derulbaskul]

I'm glad to see this thread resurrected as I didn't think you had crossed the line the first time.

Disclosure: I hated the FRCG when I first read it... and now I happily use it.

1) Just how useful the FRCG is for a DM starting a FR game (is it enough info, too little, whats glossed over, what is talked about too much, that kind of thing- I realize this will be opinion, please discuss without delving into 3E/4E is better).

If you want a simpler version of FR in which to run 4E D&D then I think it's a great book. It lacks A LOT of information but, at the same time, the regional write-ups do contain enough to make each region interesting with lots of room for the DM to add more.

In short, A LOT is glossed over and there are no surpluses of information anywhere.

2) What are the Major changes that have happened to Faerun over the 100 years that have lapsed. I've heard some Gods died, and magic is totally different- who and how? what about the organizations like the Harpers, Zhentarim, and Red Wizards? How (if at all) have they changed? Is Cyric still around, or is Bane back to being top-dog?

Wow, a lot has changed. Cyric is in prison but he owns the Zhentarim. Bane is kicking around but has a weird symbol that's not as cool as the 3E version. The Red Wizards are very different.

Hmmm, perhaps it is best if you read the three Countdown to the Forgotten Realms articles on the WotC website?

3) Is the Player's Guide much of a necessity as far as flavor/fluff text goes (i.e. are there details on regions/peoples/happenings that are not present in the campaign guide? or is it mostly crunch?

The Player's Guide is what sold me on the setting (that plus I really wanted to run 4E and not have to do conversion work until I was more au fait with the system). It is actually a guide for players which is, well, logical but not how most guides for players play out. I love the way a lot of the regions are written up with information for the players that the players can actually read without setting secrets being divulged. Great stuff- a genuine introduction to the world with some nice crunch bits.

4) I was told that the 4E Realms is pretty much devoid of the canonical NPCs (Elminster, Khelben, etc) - Not even mentioned in the book? is that the case?

Elminster gets a mention but basically all those NPCs of earlier editions are not around. Szass Tam is a major villain as the undead ruler of Thay. Khelben got absorbed into a high magic ritual in a 3.5E-era novel so he wasn't going to make a return anyway.

5) Poster map-is one included?

Yes, and it would be kind of me if I simply said, "it sucks". Really, it does suck. I know the idea is to have points of light... but the map is really sparse and not that attractive. The 1E maps were better... as were 2E and 3E. I just hope we see more Realmslore articles so we can get more of the great Mike Schley (sp?) maps.

Seriously, I think a decent map (and, yes, it is a poster map) with just a bit more detail would have eliminated a lot of the nerdrage that poured out when the FRCG was released. I also wish the small regional maps had a bit more detail.

Anyway, the DDI article on Cormyr is worth getting for the map alone (although you can also find legal copies of the map all over the 'net: try here and Cartographer's Guild).

[Shemeska]

The changes to the setting are pretty massive:

Large portions of the world are simply no longer there. Excised. Deleted. Choose your verb. The old kingdom nation of Mulhorand is gone, literally ripped out of the world and no longer part of the planet. Unther was likewise removed, and transplanted in its place is an entire kingdom of dragonborn, presumably to bring that 4e race into the Realms where they hadn't existed previously. Thay is decimated and a big, undead wasteland.

Further south, the nation of Halruaa was obliterated by the Spellplague and it and its civilization no longer exist for all intents and purposes.

A lot of the map was ravaged in order to make FR fit the PoL dynamic. And due to the huge time-jump between the end of 3e and the start of the 4e Realms, unless a character was immortal or perhaps a very long-lived elf, they're going to be dead, so a lot of plot hooks and developing metaplot is rather abruptly gone.

The biggest impact on PCs however is that because of the timejump and the slew of changes, there's no easy way to transition PCs from a 3e FR campaign into a 4e one. Most PCs would die during the time interval, and the world is so different, they might not recognize it, and anything they'd worked for, protected, built up, etc likely isn't around anymore.

The 4e Realms IMHO can work if you're starting a fresh campaign with little or no connection to prior material (some was retconned, some was never touched on in 4e, much was made moot due to other changes and the timejump). The 4e Realms are effectively a new campaign setting compared to the 1e/2e/3e Realms.

[Pseudopsyche]

Disclaimer: I do not own the FRCG. But I would recommend looking at the excerpts on the product page for the book, which gives the two-page writeups for some of the regions, along with stat blocks for one of the threats in the setting and some excerpts from the included starter adventure. The region writeups in particular should give you an idea of the level of detail.

[Keefe the Thief]

And to balance Shemeskas post out a bit: while the setting has changed and the number of gods may finally have actually fallen into two-digit numbers, its still the same old Realms you knew - but 100 years into the future. Approach it like the old "Arcane Age" setting that presented Netheril as a playable place - another point in the timeline you can explore and have fun in.

The continuity from 3e is pretty strong, and there are a lot of cool ideas included: like earthmotes, flying little earth-islands drifting through the sky, Comyrs imperial ambitions, the Red Wizards as exiles trying to clobber together a merchant empire etc.

Its ideal for a new campaign. Happy gaming!

[Piratecat]

Thanks, Jeff. Interesting thread. I was also curious about the changes.

[SpydersWebbing]

I own both, and they're both fantastic. I don't think of the two books (Campaign Guide and Player's Guide) as seperate entities, but two halves of the same coin. The books are obviously designed to be played with, which is a huge plus. A lot of people don't like the "lack" of detail, but considering how cluttered everything was before I found it nice that I actually had room to design an adventure.

If it wasn't for the fact that my own world (Everlost) is my little pet project I'd play this in a heartbeat.

Pick them up, they're good.

[Nifft]

Originally Posted by Shemeska

Large portions of the world are simply no longer there. Excised. Deleted.

"They're just pining for the fjords!"

Originally Posted by Shemeska

The biggest impact on PCs however is that because of the timejump and the slew of changes, there's no easy way to transition PCs from a 3e FR campaign into a 4e one. (...) The 4e Realms are effectively a new campaign setting compared to the 1e/2e/3e Realms.

Agreed. And honestly, the whole FR quest-dynamic has changed so much, from uber-NPCs asking PCs to do errand quests (in 3.x) into a grim PoL "you're on your own" kinda thing, that transitioning plots would be really tough even if PCs were expected to have survived.

Originally Posted by SpydersWebbing

I own both, and they're both fantastic. I don't think of the two books (Campaign Guide and Player's Guide) as seperate entities, but two halves of the same coin. The books are obviously designed to be played with, which is a huge plus. A lot of people don't like the "lack" of detail, but considering how cluttered everything was before I found it nice that I actually had room to design an adventure.

We once played some Star Wars RPG games, and my group's flavor lawyers (aka "canon lawyers", "fan•atics", "guys who can actually translate Shryyyyyyyywook", etc.) detracted from the experience. It's not that they were jerks about it or anything, but I could see them mentally gnashing their teeth whenever the GM flubbed up some point of Star Wars lore, or got creative in a manner that (unknowingly) contradicted the aforestated lore. It reduced their fun, and I think that served to inhibit the GM.

Just as System Mastery has come under criticism for rewarding a minority of players, IMHO we saw previous editions of FR reward a minority of DMs who could achieve Setting Mastery. It's nice to see both forms of SM scaled back.

Cheers, -- N

[Jack99]

I like both, as noted in my reviews. For what it is worth, I was never the huge fan of the 3e version, I prefered the grey box. I found the 4e FR campaign guide to be an excellent framework for your game/campaign. A framework, this is important. It means you have to build your own stuff, aside from the adventures, at least if you want details en masse.

Now, if you are looking for a book that tells you what the price of roasted dragon steak is in an Inn in Waterdeep, this is definitely not the book you are looking for.

[mach1.9pants]

Well if you are after a 'framework' to apply your DM skills to then the FR books are ideal. I would imagine that Eberron is going to be the same. The realms are huge with a lot of history to explain and the info is contained in 2 books, they are not both full thickness (160 and 288 pages) and they use the 4E lay out and font (meaning both books together have about the content of 1/3 of the mammoth 3E guide, at the most). Therefore you can imagine how much info you get on each area, not much, 2 sides including small incredibly un-detailed map. However they are full of plot hooks (one sentence ones) and give all the high level info you need (gods, etc).
To me they are an ideal mine for ideas or framework for a campaign but very poor if you want to run a campaign with minimal work. If you as a DM were to knock up the same amount of info included in one region of the realms plus the high level stuff for a home brew campaign (for example my favourite campaign start of an Ireland sized island far off the main continent) would only take a couple of evenings work*.
So, in short, if you want the exact opposite of the 3E (and previous) glut of realms lore rulebooks then it is for you.
Or you can use it as an inspiration mine for your own campaign like I do.

*EDIT: Maybe a bit harsh more like 5 evenings.

[JeffB]

Thanks everyone! This thread has proven extremely informative (and I found the countdown articles on the WOTC website- DEF useful as was the Red Wizards article-surprisingly I did a similar thing with TRW many years ago when I ran FR using a hybrid of Cloak & Dagger and the 3.0 book as the inspiration)

As with the 3.0 book when it came out, I like many of the changes I'm hearing about, and am not a fan at all of others. Overall sounds positive to me (barring the map/s). Surprising amount of upheaval though!

The "framework" approach many have mentioned is exactly what I want, so I'll be picking up a copy of the 4E FRCG as soon as I am able AND the OGB box (again) as well!

and by all means , please continue to post if anyone has something to add

[NiTessine]

I wrote a fairly lengthy review back when the Campaign Guide came out. I detest the new Realms, but I do go into some detail on what the book has eaten. It's here: A Rant and a Review: Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide « Worlds in a Handful of Dice

For a second opinion, there's Gnome Stew's review, which is positive: 4th Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide Review: Big Changes, Good Book, Crappy Map - Gnome Stew, the Game Mastering Blog

There's only one thing that we agree on - the map is ugly and riddled with errors.

[Windjammer]

Originally Posted by NiTessine

I wrote a fairly lengthy review back when the Campaign Guide came out. I detest the new Realms, but I do go into some detail on what the book has eaten. It's here: A Rant and a Review: Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide « Worlds in a Handful of Dice

Just to say that this is my favourite review of the book to date, because it's both informative and is highly entertaining to read. (Favourite part: "[Some NPC] trades child slaves for the serpentfolk living nearby. They’re stored in barrels, shipped down the river to Loudwater, and there Zark hires the PCs to unload the cargo. There are hundreds of ways to handle slave trade well, and none of them involve bringing outsiders in direct contact with the merchandise. Another spectacularly idiotic plotline, here.") It also contains absolutely enviable prose, and is informed by a breadth and depth of learning (that most detested qualities in negative D&D reviews) that I haven't seen matched in quite some time.


Chiming in with some personal experience, I've for instance used the FRCG and the FRPG when prepping Skyfire Wastes, an early LFR try-out in and around Calimsham. I posted all relevant info from both books together, and still felt there wasn't really much (btw the info in "how to explain the Realms to your players" is much superior in FRPG to FRCG). So I guessit's fair to say that these books aren't source books as such (where 2E and 3E produced FR "source books") but collections of hooks to inspire you. There's not nearly enough to make for compelling adventure scenarios unless 1. you like the original hook greatly (a purely subjective matter, on which my experience has been mostly negative so far) and 2. you've plenty of inspiration to draw on to elaborate these hooks. Now 1. and 2. are closely related, because the quality of a hook goes a long way to fire your imagination.



In terms of scale, I'd compare this to the Greyhawk Red Box with its mini-write-ups for individual regions. In terms of quality, there's nothing like making your own opinion. Check out the previews on the WotC website for the book and make up your mind. And I mean it. Print one of these, or several of them, out and then sit down at your table for 30 minutes and see if you can work with it. If you can, that's a good sign. If you find them flat, stay away.

[Primal]

I don't like it, but if you're looking for a lore light FR which is even less detailed than using the Grey Boxed Set, you might like this. If you are a long-time fan, you need to remember that 4E FRCG does not explain a lot of the changes at all. If you're a new DM, this is far easier to pick up than 3E FRCS.

My biggest gripe with the book is the Loudwater section, which is (IMO) only suitable for use as toilet tissue. If you think the AD&D CRPGs during the 1980s had good-looking maps, exciting plots and well-written NPCs, you might disagree; otherwise, by Mystra's Lost Spell, this section offers very little for an experienced DM. Oh, and the world map is the suckiest I've seen so far.