Brainstorm: Ethics, motives, and personality beyond alignment

Afrodyte

Explorer
So there have been a couple of alignment threads recently, and they're about how the alignment system in past and current editions help or hinder roleplaying. Of course, there are more complicated things going on (duh!), but that seems to be the gist of it from what I've been reading.

Anyway, rather than argue about whether or not D&D alignment works or doesn't, let's brainstorm new systems of describing character ethics, motives, and personality besides D&D alignment.

The nWoD uses a Virtue and Vice to describe your character. Fading Suns uses Introvert/Extravert, Calm/Passionate, and Faith/Ego. Exalted has rating for its 4 main Virtues of Compassion, Conviction, Temperance, and Valor. And other systems I'm not even thinking about right now have their own methods.

So how 'bout it? Let's come up with new compasses for describing characters! Setting-specific ideas are particularly intriguing.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Some of the first mechanics of this sort came out very early in roleplaying history (1985 for pendragon)
Pendragon a game set in Arthurian myth did not have law and goodness scales but rather made use of virtue/vice pair ups and defined for each religion differing primary virtues... a virtue of one religion could be a vice or insignificant of another... This setting the stage for adversarial religions among other things.

One use one could compare ones characters rating in various virtues to determine how close one was to the ideals of a faith and thereby determine if the character gained certain boons from being a member of that faith this was in some sense very much Paladin style blessings.

A conceptual translation to D&D
At some level Goodness/Evilness could be measured how high ones rating was in each of the virtues of your own faith. And lawfulness might be based on how far different ones rating was different between a significant set of two opposites. For instance a character who was very flip floppy chaotic might have both a high vengeance and high mercy rating. A lawful one would likely have a very high rating in one and a low one in the other..

Note the mechanics while interesting in a simulation sense certainly had all the flaws you might expect they were prone to being used in heavy handed ways. I seem to recall the rating shifted as you did things failed saving throws adjusting your ratings trying to match closer what you did, and these saves were often even written in to pre-made scenarios... not just judgement calls of the dms.

The most likely usages of alignment style mechanics are in regards to religion...
Could purification rituals be used to cheat temporarily increasing ones rating in a certain way artificially ;)... so that knowledgeable but less than perfect individuals could excel?

RPG Theory: A Brief History of Fashion in RPG Design
 
Last edited:

I remember in an early Elric game (from '93) you got points added or subtracted from Law, Chaos or Balance depending on your actions. It was nice since your characters allegiances were formed during play based on your actions.

It was nice how you even shifted even though it might not be your intention, the use of magic for instance shifted one to Chaos while improving your skills leaned you towards Law.
 


Motives give you something that alignment doesn't, namely some sort of guidance toward a personality. But on the whole, I think when the novelty wears off, the same group of people who dislike alignment would come to loath a motivation system as well.

When people complain about alignment, four things that usually come up are:

1) It constrains and confines the player inhibiting 'role play'.
2) It forces you to accept a label.
3) It leads to metagame arguments.
4) It's too vague to be of any use and so wastes space.

If we replaced alignment with a motive system, I think very quickly the same things would be in play.

Consider a label like 'Justice' as a character motivation. Immediately we are faced with the problem that we can no more get a precise universally agreeable definition for 'Justice' than we could for 'Good' or 'Evil'. Justice is an inherently vague term especially when it comes to application. For some, 'Justice' might mean 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' For others, this definition might be abhorent and the very opposite of how they percieve justice. Instead, they might define justice as 'Recieving a fair trial under the law.' This would force the DM to define what 'Justice' meant in his campaign, which would force players to accept labels that they wouldn't want to accept. A player might consider his behavior to be perfectly 'Just', yet under the DM's definition his character is 'Unjust' - a label he has no desire to wear. Further, if the player was the sort who was inclined to argue over the definition of good or lawful, then the player would be inclined to argue the point whenever the DM's idea of what the just path is differed from his own. This would be especially the case when the motive had some mechanical impact on the game, which, if it didn't, greatly calls into question why you would even bother having labeled motives that don't impact the game meaningfully.

Or consider another attribute like 'Truthfulness'. For some, it is enough to be considered 'Truthful' if you never knowingly say something that is false. That is to say, the important point is your conviction that what you say is true. But we can easily imagine that in the cult of a diety of judgement, destiny, and balance that what is really important is not that you believe what you say to be true, but that what you say actually is true. Thus, we might have side by side, two believers is 'Truth' who would have different behaviors. One is careful not to lie; the other would take great pains to assert only what he could be absolutely certain of and would talk in a very stitled and calculated way when they could even be induced to talk at all. Thus, in this case, if we wanted to describe a cult follower, it is just as necessary to describe the particulars of the cult when we have a motive system as when we have an alignment system.

I don't think we gain a whole lot, and I actually think we lose something. Because, when you design a world to interact with an alignment system, you can be fairly certain that if something interacts with the alignment 'good' or 'evil' or 'law' or 'chaos' that there is a good chance there will be some representative of the alignment around. But if you have a whole list of 30 or 40 virtues or motives, and you have something that interacts only with 'Truthful' ones or 'Humble' ones or 'Valorous' ones or 'Arbitrary' ones or whatever, the chances of the interaction are probably reduced unless everyone is keeping up a fairly long list of motives and virtues.

Worse, if we have people picking from a bunch of motives, the chances of conflict between them increases, which greatly increases the risk of metagame arguements breaking out over interpretation. What if a character takes both 'Just' and 'Merciful', for example? Won't there then be continual argument over whether in some case justice or mercy should win out? Some cases are less obvious than this but no less divisive I think, such as the conflict between 'Honesty' and 'Pride'. Again, virtues are generally no better defined than 'Good', and some level of interpretation will be campaign specific.
 


Guys, look. I don't want to continue the same arguments from other threads here. Please don't threadjack my post if you don't think the exercise is worthwhile.
 

Pendragon's rules for traits and passions (also in Chaosium's deluxe BRP compendium) strike me as truly splendid -- and easily adjustable. If you really want a systematic approach, complete with rules for internal conflicts, then that's "required reading" IMO.
 

Step 1 could be defining what use you want to accomplish with this kind of mechanic (is that the context?)

  • Defining the tenets of religions.
  • Establish the nature or extent of ones characters relationship with a divine power source? The paladin gaining or loosing there gifts based on behavior that conforms to tenets of there religion.
  • Encouraging players to think about their characters in terms of ethics and responsibilities and create emotively richer characters?
  • Short circuiting the process of players deciding and thinking about who the enemy is? (some people honestly want it simple).
.
 
Last edited:

Pendragon's rules for traits and passions (also in Chaosium's deluxe BRP compendium) strike me as truly splendid -- and easily adjustable. If you really want a systematic approach, complete with rules for internal conflicts, then that's "required reading" IMO.

Internal conflicts which force a behavior are not on my fun list but ... ignoring that aspect they certainly are interesting.

Pendragon Traits

The game fate uses something called aspects which are invoked by the player or the DM the dm will bribe players to have there characters act in ways that conform to these aspects.. the details of how they do so are still very much in the hands of the player and choosing not to .... and eventually changing ones aspect is up the player as well.
 

Remove ads

Top