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[3.5/3.0] Collaborative Effort: Collection of Round-by-Round Monster Tactics
Gentlefolk,
I thought - incorrectly, as it turns out - that a majority of the creatures listed within the 3.5 MM would include a round-by-round breakdown of suggested tactics.
They don't. And they should.
I was wondering if there's any interest within the community to fix this 'omission.' I was thinking we could gather folks' recommendations, throw 'em all into a neat file, and then make it available to anyone who may be interested. Or, I suppose, we could just keep posting tactical suggestions to this thread. Or maybe there's a better way to go about it?
Personally, I'd love to hear what other DM's have done with some of the more complex creatures. I've found that a fair amount of the time I spend planning mid- to high-level encounters is consumed by generating round-by-round lists of potential actions. I do this so I don't forget to use certain key abilities, spells, items, etc. Since I can't keep my kids locked in the closet forever, it'd be nice to have recommended tactics already available.
Then again, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. So maybe most folks don't need something like this.
Talk to me, Goose.
Destan
This post was inspired by my desire to avoid doing anything productive, and this thread:
I just picked the first entry in the 3.5 MM to use as an example, mirroring the format of those monsters that already have Round-by-Round tactics included in their description. The below recommendation was done fairly quickly - it's late and I'm tired - so there's a good chance it includes errors. Likewise, I'm certain there's a number of "better" opening tactics.
Aboleth – Tactics Round-by-Round
An aboleth is most effective when fighting within a watery environment, as its movement upon land is severely restricted. Nevertheless, the following tactical recommendation assumes the aboleth is encountered near water adjacent to land.
An aboleth is extremely intelligent and may very well possess the memories of those slain previous to the current encounter. It will use its considerable illusionary powers to prepare the battlefield prior to any engagement, situation permitting. Aboleths often surround themselves with humanoids they have previously dominated with their Enslave ability.
Prior to combat: Use Mirage Arcana to cause the nearby shoreline to appear as if it extends outward over the water’s surface. Use Persistent Image to have a group of low-level aquatic combatants appear to be huddled near the edge of the illusionary terrain, perhaps with a bound captive or two in their midst. Use Programmed Image to give the appearance of a second group of combatants approaching the shoreline from a direction opposite the aboleth’s location, triggered whenever a creature walks upon the illusionary surface of the Mirage Arcana.
Round 1: Ready an action to use Enslave against the first humanoid enemy to approach within 30 ft. Telepathic commands to dominated foes will often be limited, as the aboleth only speaks is own language, Aquan, and Undercommon. In order to avoid provoking a second saving throw, the aboleth will only attempt to command a dominated creature to attack his companions if absolutely required. Otherwise, the aboleth will often command any dominated humanoids to “Flee” for the duration.
Round 2: If given time and a humanoid target is within 30 ft., the aboleth may make a second Enslave attempt – preferably against ranged attackers or obvious spellcasters. Otherwise, the aboleth will strike out with its tentacles at various targets with the intent to Slime numerous foes, thereby possibly distracting them or forcing enemies to concentrate on removing the affliction.
Round 3: The aboleth may attempt its third, and final, Enslave ability. Otherwise, it will concentrate on inflicting damage on any creatures within range – targeting those enemies that appear badly wounded in order to remove them from the combat.
Alternate tactic: Aboleths who are more defensively-minded may use a Programmed Image to cause a second, illusionary aboleth to appear to surface from underneath the nearby water whilst the true aboleth flees, regroups, or distances itself in order to better telepathically command any humanoids it may have Enslaved.
If forced to retreat: Use Illusory Wall to cause a wall to appear, not unlike a Wall of Stone spell, separating the fleeing aboleth from its aggressors. Use the Run action to swim directly away from any pursuers, diving deep underwater if possible.
Last edited by Destan; 24th July 2003 at 04:33 AM..
What a great idea! I was thinking of doing the same thing myself.
I'll give it a go...
Rakshasa
Tactics
Rakshasas desire wealth and power (and mortal flesh, when they can get away with it). They seek to rule over inferior mortal creatures by using magic and trickery. A rakshasa is almost never seen in its true form; instead, it disguises itself as a mortal to slip into the community. They are patient creatures, often living among mortals for years to gain their trust. A rakshasa is likely to be a powerful governmental figure or merchant, with many connections. It would be difficult for a group of adventurers to simply barge into his house and attack him simply because they believe he is an otherworldly creature of pure evil. Unless they can prove it, they will probably just be thrown in jail.
Because of its detect thoughts ability, the PCs are unlikely to catch a rakshasa unawares. If they intend to attack, it will most likely be ready for them.
If the rakshasa is hit by a weapon that does not break through its damage reduction, it pretends to be wounded. "When your enemies are cocky, they make stupid mistakes."
Prior to combat: Cast mage armor, shield, and bear's endurance on self. Cast silent image to disguise any hazards in the environment as harmless (such as pits, stairwells, walls of spikes, etc.) Order minions (servants, whatever) to stop the incoming intruders (perhaps magicking up the more loyal and powerful ones with haste and invisibility). 1st Round: Cast suggestion on the beefy, fighter-type, telling him to give up his weapons or to walk into a hazard previously disguised by silent image. 2nd Round: Cast Melf's acid arrow on a spellcaster-type. 3rd Round: Repeat.
Re: [3.5/3.0] Collaborative Effort: Collection of Round-by-Round Monster Tactics
Quote:
Originally posted by Destan They don't. And they should.
Should they really?
Consider this... As soon as you come up with a standard round-by-round monster tactics guide for DMs, you will shortly have standard round-by-round anti-monster tactics guides for players.
Combats could become exceedingly dull.
__________________ The Pbartender
"I don't believe it. There she goes again! She's tidied up, and I can't find anything! All my tubes and wires and careful notes and antiquated notions..." - Thomas Dolby
Re: Re: [3.5/3.0] Collaborative Effort: Collection of Round-by-Round Monster Tactics
Quote:
Originally posted by Pbartender
Should they really?
Consider this... As soon as you come up with a standard round-by-round monster tactics guide for DMs, you will shortly have standard round-by-round anti-monster tactics guides for players.
Combats could become exceedingly dull.
Well if a DM use a certain monster enough that players can glean such information without reading the monster manual, then they should have a lot of experience with said monster. They could probably come up with their own, better tactics. Also the round by round guidelines are there for a plausible tactic a monster may use, it is not a strict guideline.
Well if a DM use a certain monster enough that players can glean such information without reading the monster manual, then they should have a lot of experience with said monster. They could probably come up with their own, better tactics.
That's not really the point...
It's a simple warning that the first thing some players are going do, once this is complete, is go read all the suggested tactics and devise specific battle plans to counter those tactics.
Combats could become very predictable and dull as players whip out Attack Plan Gamma-One every time a gargoyle shows its face. Lizardfolk ambush? Dig up Defense Plan Lambda-Six.
I don't think this would happen in every situation... But expect the problem to show up sooner or later.
Quote:
Originally posted by ShadowX
Also the round by round guidelines are there for a plausible tactic a monster may use, it is not a strict guideline.
As much as I'd like to agree with that... I don't think that that is how most DMs who would be using this sort of guide would use it.
If you don't want a specific, straightforward round-by-round battle plan, why bother? All the MM entries have a general combat guideline already. For example, from the SRD: "Trolls have no fear of death: They launch themselves into combat without hesitation, flailing wildly at the closest opponent. Even when confronted with fire, they try to get around the flames and attack."
__________________ The Pbartender
"I don't believe it. There she goes again! She's tidied up, and I can't find anything! All my tubes and wires and careful notes and antiquated notions..." - Thomas Dolby
Re: Re: [3.5/3.0] Collaborative Effort: Collection of Round-by-Round Monster Tactics
Quote:
Originally posted by Pbartender
Should they really?
Consider this... As soon as you come up with a standard round-by-round monster tactics guide for DMs, you will shortly have standard round-by-round anti-monster tactics guides for players.
Combats could become exceedingly dull.
So what do you do for new DM's?There is an immense amount of information in the core books and they need all the help they can get.
__________________ I suffer from chronic apathy, I was going to go see a doctor about it, but I didn't really care.
Originally posted by Zappo Whether this project is useful to everyone or not is irrelevant. I support it.
Me too. But then - I'm biased.
Even if this does become an "arms race" between DM's creating tactics and players countering them, I think the upside is much higher than any supposed drawbacks.
The aboleth example, for example, may give a DM a nudge one way or another to better use the creature's illusionary capabilities - he need not use the same illusions indicated in the write-up.
As of this moment, we've got two (2) creatures. Heh. Only about - what? - three hundred to go?
I like the idea, but after a quick-flip through the MM 3.5 I couldnt find a monster to do round-by-round. Most of the monsters it would be good for seem to be high CRs (since they generally have abilities and combat tricks) and I dont have any experience running anything higher than CR 13 or so.
Another interesting project (one that I feel I could contribute to) would be to finish statting "unusual" versions of a given monster. I dont know if it deserves its own thread, but that could be an awesome project too. Half-Dragon Rust Monsters, Celsestial Pegasi, etc etc.
__________________ Mike McConnell, Freelance RPG Writer Currently Working On: Starblazer Adventures: The Planet Killers
Co-Owner of Imagineering Inc, formerly known as BC-Products, and the owner of the original Tact-Tiles.
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Originally posted by Technik4
Another interesting project (one that I feel I could contribute to) would be to finish statting "unusual" versions of a given monster.
Check out any thread by BLACKDIRGE in the Rogue's Gallery forum. He regularly, and expertly, applies templates to 'standard' creatures. Includes pretty solid backgrounds, too.
I'll try to bang out another monster or two tonight.
D
__________________ VALUSMaps, downloads, and sample excerpts from the doubly ENnie-nominated campaign sourcebook.
My players don't visit this site. I guess they're not as hardcore as I am. Anyway, it can be difficult to sort through all a creature's powers and spell-like abilities to come up with a smart way to use them. Most of the monsters that have all those abilities are way smarter than us; the only way to come close to replicating that degree of intelligence is extensive planning. If someone else comes up with that before I do, and it's good, more power to 'em!
This is a great idea. People who don't think it should be there because "players will read it" have some sorry excuses for players. The idea is to make them a worthwhile CR monster.
I play in a campaign where the DM is new and doesn't know rules nor do the others. I DM so I try to help them. However, he complains that the characters are too powerful but doesn't make full use of the abilities of the monsters.
Having a round by round tactic on a lot of them would help him make them not dumb. I mean the idea of what an Aboleth does is good. We'd slay it in 2 rounds because he doesn't know or understand all the spells nor does he have time to look them up. If he knows what its basically doing he'll look them up and be able to trick us with it instead of it just attacking.
It gets boring when the 7th level cleric charges and my ftr/rog and the other rogue just keep him flanked and give him the smack down. (He doesn't have buffs up or anything like he should because the DM doesn't do it well)
Think about if some of these things or "ideas" at least were there? It'd make it a lot better.
===== Combat
Ogre mages rely on their spell-like abilities, resorting to physical combat only when necessary. When faced with obviously
superior forces, they prefer to retreat using gaseous form rather than fight a losing battle.
Spell-Like Abilities: At will—darkness, invisibility; 1/day— charm person (DC 14), cone of cold (DC 18), gaseous form, polymorph, sleep (DC 14). Caster level 9th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Flight (Su): An ogre mage can cease or resume flight as a free action. While using gaseous form it can fly at its normal speed
and has perfect maneuverability. Regeneration (Ex): Fire and acid deal normal damage to an ogre mage.
=====
Note: figuring out what the Ogre Mage could change into with polymorph would require an entire post of its own, so these tactics do not use that spell-like ability.
Ogre Mage - Tactics Round by Round
Prior to combat: Target any obvious fighter-type with charm person and ask him to persuade his friends to seek adventure elsewhere.
Round 1: Begin flying as a free action. Become invisible as a standard action. Fly 40 ft. into the air.
Round 2: Cast sleep, centering the effect to catch as many opponents as possible.
Round 3: Target spellcasters or fighters (but not rogues or monks) with cone of cold.
Rounds 4+: If any opponents remain and seem weak, charge (flying) and chop them up with greatsword. Otherwise, if remaining opponents appear strong(*), become invisble or gaseous and flee at top speed.
(*) Anybody left standing after both sleep and cone of cold could be considered strong from the ogre mage's point of view.
Edit: the ogre mage should make better use of invisibility and darkness, but I couldn't think of anything brilliant.
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Last edited by Joshua Randall; 24th July 2003 at 08:00 PM..
I love this idea and fully support it. My only question would be - shouldn't this be done in some sort of MS Word document or something? That way one doesn't have to go "wading" through posts. What do you think?
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Anyway, it can be difficult to sort through all a creature's powers and spell-like abilities to come up with a smart way to use them. Most of the monsters that have all those abilities are way smarter than us; the only way to come close to replicating that degree of intelligence is extensive planning. If someone else comes up with that before I do, and it's good, more power to 'em!
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