General RPG Rules DiscussionDiscuss the rules of any game except D&D or Pathfinder, such as Arcana Evolved, Mutants & Masterminds, Star Wars Saga, d20 Modern, and the like.
This is copied over from another thread, for a proposed revision to Pathfinder for multiclass spellcasters. It's a little radical, but I think it keeps the power level at where we want it, fixes the problems of multiclass casters being handicapped, and maintains each class's distinctive feel.
Spellcasting
Magic pervades the world, but many traditions for tapping its power exist. While most adventurers either choose one way of spellcasting or none at all, some mix styles of spellcraft, or dabble in these powers to accent their other talents.
Caster Level
Every class provides you with a caster level bonus, the way it provides a base attack bonus.
Poor (+1 per 2 levels): Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue
Average (+3 per 4 levels): Bard
Good (+1 per 1 level): Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard
Your caster level determines how many spells you can cast per day, and what spell level you have access to. For spells that have effects based on your level, you use this total caster level, not the class level of the class that granted you the spell.
[[Sidebar]]Chart 1 - Spells Per Day Progression This chart looks like the wizard spells per day chart. (Subject to change after playtesting.)
[[End Sidebar]]
You use spell slots to cast your spells. You only have one pool of spell slots, which you can use to cast any spell you know, regardless of which class it is from.
The save DC for your spells is 10 + spell level + appropriate ability score modifier. If you have levels of more than one spellcasting class, you can choose which class's primary ability score to base your save DCs on.
(Note: We do this to reduce Multiple Ability Dependency (MAD) for multiclass casters. However, I see the potential for abuse, such as with a cleric 1/sorcerer 19, who has an 8 Charisma and gets all the benefit of a high Wisdom. Wisdom is, in my opinion, the strongest mental stat. I'm not sure how to fix this problem yet.)
Spells Known
When you gain a level in a spellcasting class, choose 2 spells from that class's spell list. These spells can be any spell level you have access to, based on your caster level.
Whenever you gain a level, you can choose one spell you know and replace it with another spell that can be of the same level, any lower level, or one level higher. The spell must be from the same class, however.
(We do this so that when you go Wizard 1/Fighter 19 you're not totally different from Fighter 19/Wizard 1. Either way, you can end up with two 5th level spells if that's what you want. However, since you can only step up one level at a time, if you're a devoted spellcaster with caster level 15+, you have to have a wide spread of powers across levels.)
Quote:
Examples
Wiz 1/Ftr 19 has caster level 10, and knows 2 spells of up to 5th level.
Wiz 2/Ftr 18 is smarter, since it has pretty much the same stats, but 2 more spells. If he chose to learn four 5th level spells, all his low-level slots would go to waste, so he'd probably have one at 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 5th, and maybe some metamagic feats to exploit them.
Wiz 1/Clr 19 has caster level 20, and knows 2 wizard spells and 38 cleric spells.
Rng 2/Clr 5 has caster level 6. He knows 2 ranger spells (rangers and paladins only learn 1/level) and 10 cleric spells.
Spellcasting Classes
Each class has special rules that influence how its spellcasting functions.
Cleric:
You gain domain powers based on your cleric class level. Level-based effects of those powers, however, use your total caster level.
Channel Energy - Should this be class level or caster level based?
Spontaneous Casting - A cleric gains bonus spells known based on his class level (cure if he channels positive, inflict if negative). He can cast these spells at will, as with his normal spells known.
Ritual Casting - You can spend ten minutes in prayer to cast any spell from your cleric class list, by spending a spell slot of the appropriate level. If the spell's casting time is longer than ten minutes, use its normal casting time. Each day you can perform a number of ritual spells equal to your prime spellcasting ability score modifier. If you have multiple classes that grant ritual casting, the benefits must be split among your classes, and are not cumulative.
Druid: Spontaneous Casting - Like cleric, but for summon nature's ally.
Ritual Cleric - As cleric, but for the druid spell list.
Paladin:
Paladins only learn 1 spell per level, not 2. If their caster level is less than 1 (like at 1st level), then can't actually cast any of these spells.
(I suggest we bundle the paladin spell list into the cleric spell list, and just let paladins pick spells as clerics. Otherwise, we have the slight issue of a sorcerer 6/paladin 2 taking holy sword, and being able to have a +5 sword at 8th level. Or I guess we could just revise the holy sword spell. Either way, paladin spellcasting is crap, and could use a boost.)
Ranger:
Like paladins, rangers only learn 1 spell per level, not 2, and can't cast until their caster level is at least 1.
(Likewise, I sorta feel rangers could just use the druid spell list. I don't think it's necessary for either paladins or rangers to get 'ritual casting.')
Sorcerer: Inner Power: Sorcerers gain extra spell slots based on their class level.
(There'd be a chart showing that at 1st level, sorcerers get 2 bonus 1st level spell slots. At 3rd level they get 2 bonus 2nd level spell slots. At 5th it's 3rd level slots, at 7th it's 4th, etc. Basically this gets them up to the number of spell slots they normally would have.)
Wizard:
In addition to the spells you know and can cast at will, you can acquire new spells in a spell book, which you can use for ritual casting.
Ritual Casting: As per cleric, only for wizard spells, and you have to study your spellbook.
What do you think?
__________________ Ryan "RangerWickett" Nock
Author of the War of the Burning Sky serialized novel, free at EN World. Part Two, The Irons Have Tolled, now available.
Last edited by RangerWickett; 31st August 2008 at 09:15 PM..
I like it it as a variant.
I think Pathfinder needs to just evolve into a Unearthed Arcana like book. Tons of optional rules, all keeping compatible with 3.5 with minor on the fly adjustments.
This is an interesting idea, and I think it would work pretty well with the spell point ideas I've been toying with. That doesn't mean this system has to use spell points, but I've been considering the idea of spell points as an antidote to the "problem" of wizards being "useless" once they use up their spell slots. You ideas might work well with it, and I may adapt them.
My ideas on spell points already incorporated something like the ritual casting. I was thinking something like a wizard can cast any spell he knows out of his spellbook by using spell points, but he must spend 1 round + 1 round/spell level to fully cast the spell. Cleric works similarly but has a prayerbook, hadn't figured out how druids work. Wizards, clerics, and druids still prep spells ahead of time, for the sake of fast casting the spells in an emergency (like combat).
The biggest issue I had with my work was that I adapted the basic spell point totals from the 2e book Spells and Magic. Works ok when adjusted to the spells/day for wizard and cleric, and when the 3e bonus spells are factored in, however, the sorcerer got way too many points. I see however, there's a spell point variant on the Hypetext SRD which I assume was in UA. I'll have to take a close look at that and port it in if it's better balanced.
Speaking of which, even if you go with base spells/day, I wouldn't base it on the wizard class. Go with the cleric/druid progression, I think they're about the same, the wizard gets the fewest slots of all the main spellcasters. I think it's better balanced if wizard, cleric, and druid, all have the same casting potential. Your idea on the sorcerer bonus slots looks good too.
I don't agree that non-magic using classes like Fighter or Barbarian should grant a spell level bonus, but YMMV. I'd also make sure prestige classes which grant spells or bonus spell levels give level bonuses as well.
The cleric's channel energy ability should be based on cleric level, not spell or character level.
You'll probably need to take into account how this affects metamagic feats as well.
__________________ "Y'know, I think my favorite thing about being a hero of destiny is that it gives you all kinds of narrative justification to just slay any ol' jerk who gets in your way." -- 8-bit Theater
"i did not serve with napolean in his artillery. but i did play wargames with him and his men." -- diaglo
First (in the interest of full disclosure) let me restate what most people probably know about me- I don't see multiclassing's effect on spellcasters to be a problem, but rather as a feature.
That said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerWickett
Spellcasting
Caster Level
Every class provides you with a caster level bonus, the way it provides a base attack bonus.
Poor (+1 per 2 levels): Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue
Average (+3 per 4 levels): Bard
Good (+1 per 1 level): Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard
Your caster level determines how many spells you can cast per day, and what spell level you have access to. For spells that have effects based on your level, you use this total caster level, not the class level of the class that granted you the spell.
I think that's rather clever. Even with my personal opinion above, I could see that as an acceptable rule: the penalty remains, but is reduced, and it has a mirrored symmetry with the main feature of the warrior classes.
However, since spells still increase damage with caster levels, that means spellslingers- even multiclassed- quickly outstrip the warriors in "importance." In fact with this rule, multiclassed spellcasters now do it even faster, since even their non-caster class levels contribute to the power of the spells they cast.
Quote:
The save DC for your spells is 10 + spell level + appropriate ability score modifier. If you have levels of more than one spellcasting class, you can choose which class's primary ability score to base your save DCs on.
I don't like this- its too easy to abuse and I don't like the flavor. I don't like the idea of a PC who is a marginal caster in one hand suddenly improving because of multiclassing in another spellcaster class which uses a different stat.
If I allowed this in my campaign, it would be at the cost of a Feat or a power of a specific PrCl.
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Whenever you gain a level, you can choose one spell you know and replace it with another spell that can be of the same level, any lower level, or one level higher. The spell must be from the same class, however.
I don't particularly care for this in Wis or Int based casters. I don't generally have a problem with this for Cha based casters.
Quote:
Channel Energy - Should this be class level or caster level based?
Class level.
Quote:
Spontaneous Casting - A cleric gains bonus spells known based on his class level (cure if he channels positive, inflict if negative). He can cast these spells at will, as with his normal spells known.
Ideally, this would differ from god to god, not merely between pos/neg energy, and as such, would be broader than being limited to heals or harms. A cleric of a nature deity might Spontaneously channel like a Druid...
Perhaps they'd be based on Domains...
Of course, that would mean certain kinds of spell types would have to have their lists fleshed out. A lot.
Quote:
Paladin:
Paladins only learn 1 spell per level, not 2. If their caster level is less than 1 (like at 1st level), then can't actually cast any of these spells.
(I suggest we bundle the paladin spell list into the cleric spell list, and just let paladins pick spells as clerics. Otherwise, we have the slight issue of a sorcerer 6/paladin 2 taking holy sword, and being able to have a +5 sword at 8th level. Or I guess we could just revise the holy sword spell. Either way, paladin spellcasting is crap, and could use a boost.)
I liked Green Ronin's take on Holy Warriors in Book of the Righteous, and something similar could work here. Essentially, Paladins would get only Domain spells, plus a few powers (and if you're really tweeking things, variant auras as well).
The bard's advancement rate is closer to 2/3-- and a "massaged" 2/3 at that. The 3/4 advancement rate tops a pure bard out at CL15-- 8th level spells.
You've chosen to err on the side of fewer known spells; I went the opposite end. In your model, a Cleric or Druid loses access to "all spells" known and starts picking them up like a Wizard. Is one model "better" than the other? Dunno. They're both radically different from the status quo, so somebody will squeal one way or the other.
I'm on vacation but I'll see if I can put together a PDF with my notes to help.
I like it it as a variant.
I think Pathfinder needs to just evolve into a Unearthed Arcana like book. Tons of optional rules, all keeping compatible with 3.5 with minor on the fly adjustments.
That is what I'd like to see as well.
Thanks,
Rich
__________________ I have a sneaking suspicion that I may become the 'diaglo' of 3.5E.
"If I reject Jedi situational ethics, does that make me a Sith?"
This alternate system attempts to rebalance all the basic classes to allow spellcasters to multiclass more freely. In 3rd edition, multiclass spellcasters kept two (or more!) distinct caster progressions: caster level, spells known, and spell slots per day. In practice—and particularly in the case of the Mystic Theurge prestige class—this generally meant giving up your highest level spells in exchange for twice as many lower level spell slots. And the Mystic Theurge was the best case scenario.
It is our contention that higher level spell slots are more valuable than more lower level spell slots and the unified spell progression works nicely for this philosophy.
All classes have a Base Magic Bonus. There are four progressions:
• +1/3 levels (barbarian, fighter, rogue),
• +1/2 levels (monk, paladin, ranger),
• +2/3 levels (bard),
• +1/level (cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard)
The Base Magic Bonus (BMB) from each class adds together, just as the Base Attack Bonus combines for melee characters.
The character’s total Base Magic Bonus determines his caster level, his spell slots per day, and the number of spells he may ready each day. A character will generally have one more spell readied per day than he has spell slots, which allows some versatility in spellcasting.
At 1st level in any spellcasting class, the character gains access to all spells on a given spell list, adding them to his list of spells known. After a suitable rest period, the spellcaster chooses the spells he will ready from his list of spells known.
When he casts a spell, he may only cast a spell that he has readied; however, he may cast any spell he has readied, using his available spell slots, in any combination.
Example: Johannes is a 1st level druid. He gains access to all spells on the druid spell list. At 1st level, his Base Magic Bonus (BMB) is +1. Consulting the table, he notes that he receives three 0-level spell slots (and thus readies four 0-level spells); and he receives one 1st level spell slot (and thus readies two 1st level spells).
Johannes readies detect magic, guidance, know direction, and resistance as his 0-level spells; he readies entangle and shillelagh as his 1st level spells. Checking the table for his spell slots, he notes that he receives three 0-level spell slots and one 1st level spell slot. Due to his high Wisdom, he receives an extra 1st level spell slot.
Until Johannes rests again, he can cast three 0-level spells, chosen from any of the four he readied, and two 1st level spells, chosen from the two he readied, in any combination. In the course of reaching the dungeon itself, he’s called upon to cast know direction twice, and he casts resistance once as well, using up the last of his three 0-level spell slots. A patrol of goblins catches the party just outside the dungeon, and Johannes casts entangle. He saves his last 1st level spell slot for later, but he’ll be able to cast either entangle or shillelagh as the situation warrants.
A spellcaster may always opt to use a higher-level spell slot to power a lower level spell. He also has much greater flexibility with regards to metamagic. A spellcaster need not ready the metamagic version of any spell; rather, if he has the spell readied, and he has access to a metamagic feat, and he has a sufficiently high spell slot available, he may apply the effects of metamagic as he casts.
Characters who multiclass into another spellcasting class gain access to all of the spells on the spell list of the new class. However, although this adds considerable versatility, their spells readied and spell slots per day are still calculated solely on their Base Magic Bonus.
In addition, each spell list carries with it certain restrictions. A multiclass character may have access to spells from many different lists, but he must meet all criteria and abide by all restrictions when casting a spell from that list.
Bard spells are arcane spells, and require a minimum Charisma equal to 10 + spell level to ready or cast. In addition, all bard spells have a somatic component (playing an instrument) and a verbal component (singing, chanting, etc.) Bards are able to ignore the arcane spell failure chance on their spells when wearing no armor or light armor. Heavier armors interfere with their playing and thus carry a chance of arcane spell failure.
Cleric spells are divine spells, and require a mimimum Wisdom equal to 10 + spell level to ready or cast. Clerics and paladins both gain access to all cleric spells at 1st level. In addition, clerics (but not paladins) may gain access to additional spells through their chosen domains.
Druid spells are divine spells, and require a minimum Wisdom equal to 10 + spell level to ready or cast. In addition, no character can cast druidic spells while wearing metal armor of any kind. Such attempts automatically fail.
Wizard spells are arcane spells, and require a minimum Intelligence equal to 10 + spell level to ready or cast. Wizard spells with somantic components require intricate hand gestures, and armor of any kind interferes with casting. Any character wearing armor suffers from a chance of arcane spell failure.
Sorcerers cast wizard spells, and their spells are the same in all respects, including arcane spell failure. However, sorcerers cast arcane spells through innate power (often derived from a fey, draconic, or even infernal bloodline), as opposed to study and research. A sorcerer can meet the ability score criteria of wizard spells using his Charisma rather than his Intelligence. A sorcerer must have a minimum Charisma of 10 + spell level to cast his spells.
Multiclass spellcasters use only their highest applicable ability score to determine bonus spell slots per day and the DC of their spells, regardless of which spell list they use to ready and cast spells.
* A spellcaster’s base Ready Spells Per Day is always one more than the number of base spell slots listed.
** A character must be a spellcaster in order to cast spells.
We’re going to walk through the individual classes in a logical progression, starting with the comparison of Sorcerers to Wizards.
Please note that in order to keep the table sizes down, I’ve eliminated all extraneous information (BAB, Saves, existing class information) in order to focus on the changes.
Sorcerer
Spoiler:
Charismatic Caster: Sorcerers cast wizard spells, and their spells are the same in all respects, including arcane spell failure. However, sorcerers cast arcane spells through innate power (often derived from a fey, draconic, or even infernal bloodline), as opposed to study and research. A sorcerer can meet the ability score criteria of wizard spells using his Charisma rather than his Intelligence.
At 1st level, a sorcerer gains access to all the spells on the wizard spell list. To learn or cast an arcane spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier. He receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
A sorcerer’s selection of spells is limited. He does not ready as many spells per day as the wizard; however he gains many more spell slots per day. The sorcerer may only use his bonus spell slots to cast arcane spells.
Wizards are versatile spellcasters. They do not have as many spell slots per day as the sorcerer, but he may ready many more spells. This allows the wizard much greater utility and flexibility to prepare for the unexpected.
Bonus Ready Spell: At 1st level, the wizard may ready one additional 1st level spell in addition to those normally gained through his Base Magic Bonus. At every level thereafter, the wizard continues to gain bonus readied spells, as shown on the table. The wizard may only use this class feature to Ready bonus arcane spells.
Read Magic: The 0-level read magic spell is always considered ready for a wizard.
Spellbooks: A wizard must study his spellbook each day to ready his spells. He cannot ready wizard spells if for any reason he is denied access to his spellbook (with the exception of read magic, as above). A multiclass wizard may ready spells as normal for his other classes, but if he loses his spellbook, he loses access to any bonus ready spells granted by his wizard class.
School Specialization
A specialist wizard can ready one additional spell of his specialty school per spell level each day, over and above all his other ready spells, and he gains an additional spell slot which he may only use to cast that spell.
The wizard and the sorcerer best demonstrate the counterbalance between readied spells and spell slots. A sorcerer will typically have 3 more spell slots than the wizard, but the wizard will have 3-4 more readied spells to choose from than the sorcerer.
Cleric
Spoiler:
Cleric Domains: A 1st level cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to his deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain.
If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.
The cleric gains the granted power from each domain. His chosen domains also grant him access to all the spells listed for each domain, in addition to the normal cleric spell list.
At 11th level, the cleric gains a third domain chosen from his deity’s domains (or according to his spiritual inclinations, if he has no specific deity). He gains access to all the spells on his 3rd domain in addition to a 3rd granted power.
Spells: A cleric casts divine spells from the cleric spell list. At 1st level, the cleric gains access to all of the spells on the cleric spell list.
To ready or cast a cleric spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a cleric’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the cleric’s Wisdom modifier. He receives bonus spell slots per day if he has a high Wisdom score.
Domain Spells: A cleric’s domain spells are always readied. In addition, beginning at 1st level, the cleric gets one bonus spell slot per day. The bonus spell slot may only be used to cast one of his 1st level domain spells. As the cleric advances in level, he gains additional bonus spell slots, which he must use to cast his domain spells. A cleric may not cast the same domain spell twice from a bonus slot; if he has more than one bonus slot, he must cast a different domain spell from each.
Spontaneous Casting: A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not ready ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any readied spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with “cure” in its name, including the mass cure spells of higher levels). The cleric may not use his bonus domain spell slots for spontaneous casting. Once a readied spell is used in this way for spontaneous casting, the prior spell is no longer considered ready.
Druids
The druid’s existing class features are unchanged. The druid gains no bonus spell slots nor bonus readied spells as class features. The druid gains a spontaneous casting ability to convert readied spells into Summon Nature’s Ally I thru IX.
Bards
The bard’s Base Magic Bonus progression is “approximately” 2/3. The progression has been jiggled slightly at some levels (to account for the bard’s prior “0” entries on his spell list, and to grant new spell levels at the existing, expected break points) and is capped at +12. The extended progression (to +13) is shown for completeness.
The bard has no additional class features under this system.
Paladins and Rangers
The paladin has exactly two spells that don’t already appear on the cleric spell list: Bless Weapon and Holy Sword. Our solution is to add these spells as spell-like abilities, and to otherwise grant the paladin full access to the cleric spell list. This has the added (desirable) effect of making the paladin feel more like a holy warrior.
Similarly for Rangers, we recommend simply rolling the ranger spells into the druid spell list, and giving the Ranger access to the entire druid spell list as his spells known.
Both Paladins and Rangers have a BMB of ˝; thus they will gain access to spellcasting abilities sooner than under the existing rules. Both are considered “spellcasters” and thus under these rules, they’ll gain access to 0 level spells beginning at 1st level with a BMB of +0. Ultimately they will be able to cast 5th level spells.
Monks
We’ve also given the monk a +˝ BMB advancement. Though they are not considered spellcasters, their mystical abilities blend well with spellcasters. Needless to say, we’re in favor of boosting the monk’s abilities overall and lifting any multiclassing restrictions.
Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue
These classes have a +1/3 BMB progression.
Not to shoot down your idea (I think it is quite good). I am not sure that it fits in the mold of the types of changes that they would like to make to the 3.5e game. A stated goal was compatibility and this seems pretty different. Can you explain how the compatibility issue is dealt with in your mod at least more so than any other less extensive changes?
Wulf, your and my suggestions are pretty similar. But where I tried to tone down spellcaster power by reducing spells available, you've greatly increased it for sorcerers and wizards. What's your logic for that? Also, if you want to cast a spell twice in a day, do you have to prepare it twice, or can you prepare it once and just spend a spell slot each time you want to cast it?
I think 3/4 spellcasting progression is aesthetically better than 2/3, but for balance sake, and to minimize fiddling, I think your idea works.
My version is easier in gameplay, I feel. I've never liked having to write down prepared spells, and I prefer spontaneous casting. Less book-keeping. Likewise, despite my work on Elements of Magic, I sorta hate spell points. A little too fiddly.
Sadrik, I don't see how either my or Wulf's version are 'incompatible' with existing 3.5 products. Sure, there would be niche case problems: for instance, what do assassins get (I recommend that if a prestige class gets its own mini spell list, it is independent of this system, but if a prestige class provides a caster level boost, well that's easy to work into this system). And how would you qualify for prestige classes that require divine caster level 5 (easy revision, you need to be able to cast 3rd level divine spells).
What problem do you see with the systems being compatible? When it comes to NPCs, I'm pretty sure even the Paizo folks have admitted the best thing to do is to run them as they're written, and not try to convert them to the new ruleset. I mean, few people complain that now all the NPC fighters in their games will need to have extra feats and stuff; you just run them as they were previously written and don't sweat the small stuff.
As an aside, one idea I always liked was to directly equate BAB with attack power. So a Fighter 20's attacks would be 20x as damaging as a Fighter 1's, or at least 20x as versatile. The idea came from Elements of Magic, where it was easy for you to design spells at high level that did lots of things at once, because you had lots of Magic Points to play around with. I wanted to someday create a Elements of Battle system where fighters got Battle Points for pulling off cool maneuvers in combat.
But I suppose that's a development for a different game.
Anyway, back to this one. We both like the unified spells per day based on caster level, and stacking caster level based on class. We disagree on how people should get access to spells. Which solution do you think is better? Which would be better accepted by the Pathfinder community, and which is better for game balance and gameplay?
We should come up with a unified proposal and show it to the guys at Paizo.
__________________ Ryan "RangerWickett" Nock
Author of the War of the Burning Sky serialized novel, free at EN World. Part Two, The Irons Have Tolled, now available.
Last edited by RangerWickett; 2nd September 2008 at 03:52 AM..
I didn't say it was incompatible I said it was different. Different just means that you have to do some learning to get it to work in Pathfinder. By the way this is very, very similar to what was a popular line of thinking post Arcana Unearthed. I myself had a very similar concept to this back in the day. So I know it is good.
Here is my rule for multi-classing that I think pathfinder should adopt:
You add 1/2 your other levels to your class to advance *all* of your class features but no more than double.
Example:
Rogue 2/Wizard 6
Counts as a 7th level wizard
Counts as a 4th level rogue
They get all bonuses and class features as though they were of the particular class and level.
Note this is highly simple and portable. Nothing extra is really needed to be known to make this work. What do you think?
Wulf, your and my suggestions are pretty similar. But where I tried to tone down spellcaster power by reducing spells available, you've greatly increased it for sorcerers and wizards.
I'm not sure I've really increased it for wizards since they had access to every spell they could purchase-- which is effectively every spell they want beyond L3 or so.
But I'll concede the point on sorcerers-- and bards-- AND effectively every multiclass spellcaster who'll get access to all the known spells on every class he takes. As I said upthread, I went the exact complete opposite end of the spectrum than you did.
No doubt it makes spellcasters more versatile. Versatility is power of a fashion, of course.
It's especially powerful ("Broken!" says BryonD) in the case of a Clr1/Wiz19 who picks up all the divine spells (all the way to Miracle and True Resurrection) as a cleric as well as all the Wizard spells (all the way to Wish). (Or vice versa for the Clr19/Wiz1).
It's very different and so therefore very scary.
Ultimately there are not such vast differences between the arcane and divine spell lists that mixing them breaks the system (though it may very well break the sacred cow "feel" of the game for you). In the end the spell list is already very nearly universal, and you have a 20th level character who can cast Wish OR Miracle OR True Resurrection, which taken by itself isn't really so scary after all.
Compared to the status quo? Well, all he's given up are the 20th level Wizard perks (one bonus Feat and one bonus 5th level Ready spell).
This makes him much more useful as a healer but not more useful than a true cleric-- he lacks the bonus divine spells and spontaneous casting ability of the true cleric. So he'll have to actually Ready his healing spells.
Conversely the Clr19/Wiz1 can have a grand time blasting his foes apart with arcane magic, and he'll more than pull his weight as a healer-- but he cannot Ready arcane spells in his bonus domain slots, and he'll lack the bonus feats and bonus readied spells of the true wizard.
All of that now presented for discussion, I will admit I would be much happier if this system included a Universal spell list that is divided into (at most) Divine and Arcane spells.
You certainly could do exactly that by throwing out the 3.5 spell list and using a more unified spell list such as that found in the AE spell treasury.
This is a variation on what I mentioned in the other thread-- that the key was to make class abilities for the spellcasters that were attractive and yet on par with the other class features (such as the Bbn features).
Successful? I guess that depends on how you feel about the Rog2/Ftr4/Bbn14. Those classes synergize pretty well, too.
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Also, if you want to cast a spell twice in a day, do you have to prepare it twice, or can you prepare it once and just spend a spell slot each time you want to cast it?
The Ready spell mechanic appears in AU/AE. I recommend checking it out.
Basically you start the day by Readying every spell you want to have access to-- think of it as a miniature "spells known" list. You can then cast any spell you have Readied using any available spell slots. You don't need to Ready the same spell twice.
The example section in orange in the middle explains this.
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I think 3/4 spellcasting progression is aesthetically better than 2/3, but for balance sake, and to minimize fiddling, I think your idea works.
I started with 3/4 on bards as well. It would work just fine if you want to add 7th and 8th level spells to the bard spell list.
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My version is easier in gameplay, I feel. I've never liked having to write down prepared spells, and I prefer spontaneous casting.
Give the Ready spells mechanic a fair shake. It's an excellent mix between "prepared" and "spontaneous" casting. I'd certainly take versatility at the expense of a bit of simplicity.
At any rate I didn't post to compete with your version, only to share the path I'd gone down. We may yet converge.
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Sadrik, I don't see how either my or Wulf's version are 'incompatible' with existing 3.5 products. When it comes to NPCs, I'm pretty sure even the Paizo folks have admitted the best thing to do is to run them as they're written, and not try to convert them to the new ruleset; you just run them as they were previously written and don't sweat the small stuff.
Exactly. I have no compunctions whatsoever about changing the mechanics behind the PCs and leaving the NPCs behind.
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Anyway, back to this one. We both like the unified spells per day based on caster level, and stacking caster level based on class. We disagree on how people should get access to spells. Which solution do you think is better?
I'm still not sure. Jury's out. Presented here for discussion. I will say I am generally comfortable giving more power to the PCs/players and I'll worry about challenging them from my side of the screen.
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Which would be better accepted by the Pathfinder community, and which is better for game balance and gameplay?
I think it's impossible to please all Pathfinder fans. I especially doubt that I am the man for the job. My wants and needs have already diverged too far from Pathfinder-- I don't particularly want the changes that they made and the changes that I need, they haven't touched yet.
Well in that case, since I might end up writing for Pathfinder products in the future, I prefer my version ( :-D ), where the ratio of spells you know depends on the ratio of your different spellcasting classes.
It's late, but I'll try to work something up later this week.
I'm sure you've mentioned it elsewhere, but what are the particular changes you need that they haven't touched yet? Monster design?
__________________ Ryan "RangerWickett" Nock
Author of the War of the Burning Sky serialized novel, free at EN World. Part Two, The Irons Have Tolled, now available.
Well in that case, since I might end up writing for Pathfinder products in the future, I prefer my version ( :-D ), where the ratio of spells you know depends on the ratio of your different spellcasting classes.
The answer is probably somewhere in the middle, because this:
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Wiz 1/Ftr 19 has caster level 10, and knows 2 spells of up to 5th level.
is almost as bad as the status quo. Why bother stacking caster level and spell slots if the CL10 Ftr/Wiz only knows two spells? He's throwing away most of his spell slots.
He could get magic missile and fireball, and take a metamagic feat or two, and have a ton of mook-killing power. Or he might go for, say, minor image and teleport. Either is better than the current version and, I feel, better than your system which would let a 19th level fighter pick up dozens of spells by investing just one level in wizard.
Maybe make spells known a function of your total caster level, and have a universal spell list. If your caster level goes up due to a nonspellcasting class's level, you have to pick spells from the universal list.
What if your caster level increases when you haven't yet taken any spellcasting classes yet, though? Hm. Maybe you don't select any spells, and whenever you take a spellcasting class, you have to fill in all the backlog with spells from your current class. Iffy.
__________________ Ryan "RangerWickett" Nock
Author of the War of the Burning Sky serialized novel, free at EN World. Part Two, The Irons Have Tolled, now available.
I really like the Readied spells mechanism from AU/AE, so I'm more inclined to like Wulf's proposal.
However, while I'll refrain myself from screaming "Broken !", I would probably add one of the following limitations
a cap on the highest level of spell known, something like class level x2.
Every full spellcasting class after the first gives a -1 to BMB
A side effect to the Readied spell mechanisms is that it blurs the differences between sorcerers and wizards casting styles (and replaces them advantageously).
Looking at their progression tables, I wondered if one class wouldn't be enough to represent both archetypes. Let's call him the Magic User
The Magic User chooses between two mutually exclusive (or not ?) feats:
The first one allows the Magic user to convert up to one spell slot of every level into two readied spells of the same level.
The second one allows the Magic User to convert up to one readied spell of every level into two spell slots of the same level.
Both feats can only be used upon readying spells.
Additionally, I would give a feat every 5 levels. I would add several feat chains or feat trees for representing school specializations or sorcerous bloodlines.
While I think what you guys are working on is pretty cool from a design perspective, there's no way it makes it into Pathfinder (if you're considering that as a goal). It's simply too dissimilar to 3.5. Even I, as big an amateur design wonk as I am, got a little "eyes glazed over" thing as I was reading through this. There's just no way Pathfinder goes in a direction that will freak out so many players.
Not that that should stop you.
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He could get magic missile and fireball, and take a metamagic feat or two, and have a ton of mook-killing power. Or he might go for, say, minor image and teleport.
A 10th level caster (Wizard, in your version) has a spell slot load of 4/4/4/3/3/2.
Just giving the Fighter two spells known throws away most of his slots. It invalidates the entire point behind the fix.
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Either is better than the current version and, I feel, better than your system which would let a 19th level fighter pick up dozens of spells by investing just one level in wizard.
What is the difference between a Fighter who takes a level of Wizard and gains access to dozens of spells, and a Wizard who takes a level of Fighter and is suddenly proficient with all martial weapons, all armors, and tower shields? Would you change that?
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Maybe make spells known a function of your total caster level, and have a universal spell list. If your caster level goes up due to a nonspellcasting class's level, you have to pick spells from the universal list.
I'm more inclined to define a Universal list that everyone gets complete and instant access to as soon as they pick up 1 spellcasting level, and then carve out more restricted class-based lists that you have to choose from when you level up.
At the end of the day the Clr10/Wiz10 deserves access to 9th level spells in both classes. Period. He's a "full" spellcaster with an even split, he deserves every bit of power coming to a 20th level character-- just as the Wiz20, the Clr20, or the synergy enjoyed by a Ftr10/Bbn10 (who gives up nothing other than class features).
There's no way it makes it into Pathfinder (if you're considering that as a goal). There's just no way Pathfinder goes in a direction that will freak out so many players.
At the end of the day the Clr10/Wiz10 deserves access to 9th level spells in both classes. Period. He's a "full" spellcaster with an even split, he deserves every bit of power coming to a 20th level character-- just as the Wiz20, the Clr20, or the synergy enjoyed by a Ftr10/Bbn10 (who gives up nothing other than class features).
I believe that, given the existing spell lists, access to high level spells are defining class features for wizards and Cleric. For this reason alone, I feel giving multiclass spellcasters access to 9th level spells in two or more spell lists cheapens the single classed ones.
As you mentioned, it will work much better with a universal spell list. It would also need other defining class features at high levels IMO.
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