I'm not aware of the conventions on timing and requirements in getting something approved (still new), but I'd like to get the ball rolling on D369.<br><br>Mechanics contained in the product:<br>
Minotaur PC Race
- Nothing really powerful here. Racial attack that only works on a charge. No unusual stat bonuses (Str + Con, same as Goliath), free melee basic when they hit 0 hp.
- Racial feats included. Mostly with situational effects (push 1 square on a charge, +3 Perception and all checks to avoid getting lost).
- Paragon Paths (3). More care should be taken here, some effects look pretty strong. (Then again, I've never played a paragon tier character, they may be typical.
Bazaar of the Bizare
- Feral armor; has a built-in weapon better than anything in the PHB1 for basic statline. 1d8, +3 proficiency military light blade.
- Pact Bow. Does what it sounds like. Elves only.
- Winged Bracers (Level 12) Hang Glider. Situational usability.
- Fleetrunner Boots. Level 5+. Bonuses on running.
- Ghoststride Boots. + to ac and insubstantial while running.
- Giantkind Gloves. Throw Rocks like an old-school giant. +2 damage with a melee attack (encounter power)
- Mask of the Eye Leech. Daily power; blind someone and gain immunity to blindness. Sustain Minor. Requires attack; Any mental + 2 at heroic tier.
- Periapt of Cascading Health. Encounter Power; Minor Action to auto-save against one effect.
- Baldric of Dividing Ranks. + to AC vs Opportunity attacks from minions. OPD you can move through minions' squares until end of next turn.
- Flagon of Ale Procurement. Silly item Find water or alchohol within 60 sq.
- Treeform Box. Polymorph into a tree. Ends at will (minor action).
Demonomicon; Baphomet
- DM materials regarding the God of Minotaurs. Mostly for epic or late paragon tier.
Io'Vanthar
- Location info, lost city of the Dragonborn.
Dragon Slayer Perstige Classes
- Class-based paths for PHB1 Classes.
Class Acts: Warlord.
- Ancient warlord tactics from the kingdom of Bael-Turath. 8 New powers (one L1, one L6, the rest higher).
- Mostly (But not entirely) polearm-related.
- Feats: Warlord-to-Warlock MC feats, Infernal Warlock feat to use polearm as Implement.
- Magic Item: L7+ Polearm. Balanced (IMO).
Bard Preview - Obsolete.
What I want out of this
What I particularly want out of this issue is the following power:
{{L4W:Power
|Name=Diabolic Stratagem
|Frequency=Encounter
|ActionType=Standard
|TargetType=Melee
|Keywords=Weapon, martial
|Target=one creature
|Attack=Strength vs Reflex
|Hit=[1W]+Strength modifier damage, and the target is marked until the end of your next turn.
|Effect=You grant the target of this attack combat advantage until the start of your next turn. The first attack the target makes against you before the start of your next turn provokes opportunity attacks from you and your allies.
}}
This power is similar to Hammer-and-Anvil in the PHB, but different enough (IMO) to warrant use.
{{L4W:Power
|Name=Hammer and Anvil
|Frequency=Encounter
|ActionType=Standard
|TargetType=Melee
|Keywords=Weapon, martial
|Target=one creature
|Attack=Strength vs Reflex
|Hit=[1w]+Strength modifier damage. One ally adjacent to the target makes a melee basic attack against it as a free action. The ally adds your Charisma modifier to the damage.
}}
I figured the least I could do was include a summary of what else is in the book.
Last edited by covaithe; 23rd July 2009 at 02:44 PM..
Reason: change thread title
I should point out a few things about the feral armor. It's hide, so rogues[the people looking for light blades] have to buy an armor prof to use it and half of they will have a hard time of it [CHA rogues]. The weapon is nice, but offers no crit, properties or powers on it's own.
For future reference, the source has to be available to the public for 3 months before it can be proposed. This is definitely old enough.
Actually, I think this was proposed a long time ago. Discussion ground to a halt because of the nerf to minotaurs ... we couldn't decide what to do with them, since there are a number of minotaur characters currently which make use of oversized. I'm unsure whether it was the whole magazine or just the minotaur bit that was proposed, though I do recall a little discussion on the feral armor.
Anyone have any brilliant ideas for how to deal with the minotaur nerf?
For future reference, the source has to be available to the public for 3 months before it can be proposed. This is definitely old enough.
Actually, I think this was proposed a long time ago. Discussion ground to a halt because of the nerf to minotaurs ... we couldn't decide what to do with them, since there are a number of minotaur characters currently which make use of oversized. I'm unsure whether it was the whole magazine or just the minotaur bit that was proposed, though I do recall a little discussion on the feral armor.
Anyone have any brilliant ideas for how to deal with the minotaur nerf?
I think the discussion pretty much revolved around the un-Oversizing of the minotaur.
As a player of one of the existing Oversized PC's, I'm biased, as it sets precedent for dealing with the eventual bugbear nerf.
My main problem with the minotaur article actually wasn't that Oversized was removed. It was that what they got instead sucked so much. If bugbears end up mechanically as good as half-orcs, I'll live with turning in my large rapier for a regular one.
EDIT: I'm okay with grandfathering in existing PC's, but that does cause issues.
__________________ Gary Hoggatt - www.garyh.net "Such heroic nonsense..."
why not just add the caveat that brutal and over sized don't stack. Over sized applies instead of brutal, or vice versa.
I think the better way to do it would be to say that brutal D12 weapons STAY D12 weapons. The whole issue was the transition to a 2D6 brutal weapon right? That way only the problem weapons are effected and everyone else with 'normal' weapons can go about their merry way.
why not just add the caveat that brutal and oversized don't stack.
I think we have that in place with regards to Adventurer's Vault, at least. This is how I worded it, when I updated the charter in ancient times, but it might not be the best:
Quote:
Originally Posted by L4W Facilitator
Adventurer's Vault. Amendments: Double weapons are not allowed mechanically (but two weapons can be flavored as one), weapons with the Brutal property cannot be used in conjunction with the Oversized feature. (Discussion here)
One thing that blows with oversized is that it gives absurdly uneven results depending on the weapon.
An oversized Bastard sword : 1d10 to 1D12
Oversized Waraxe or two-hande axe : 1d12 to 2d6
Oversized Maul : 2d6 to 2d8
Net result; typically a pre-369 minotaur is far more likely to use a bastard sword or a Maul than an axe. Who has ever heard of a fantasy minotaur with an axe?
---
Adopt Dragon 369 minotaurs, I say. That's not really a nerf; it's the rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by P.276
Note that these traits and powers are more in
line with monster powers than with player character powers.
A player should only use one of the following races to
create a character with the permission of the Dungeon
Master. The DM should carefully consider which monster
races, if any, to allow as PCs in his or her campaign.
It's not like they didn't warn us. L4W is overall pretty cautious about what rules it accepts and I was always amazed that the monster races made it in wholesale. Personnally, had I been around at the time, I'd have argued in favor of accepting only the races that are in a PHB, a campaign guide or that have had their full write up in a Dragon.
Personnally, had I been around at the time, I'd have argued in favor of accepting only the races that are in a PHB, a campaign guide or that have had their full write up in a Dragon.
The only issue with that is not everyone can or is willing to get DDI including several of the judges. However, I'm pretty sure you'll find most have the Monster Manual [or access to the free part of DDI]. I think right there is why MM races made it in. People had access to them and could look them over.
The only issue with that is not everyone can or is willing to get DDI including several of the judges. However, I'm pretty sure you'll find most have the Monster Manual [or access to the free part of DDI]. I think right there is why MM races made it in. People had access to them and could look them over.
The minotaur is not available via the free-part of the DDI unless you have I link I don't. If I don't sign in, go to the compendium, and type minotaur, it only brings up the Dragon version.
__________________ stonegod -- LEB judge and spawn of Khyber since 2005 (Blog)
When MM races were allowed into living 4e, they were available via the free-part of the DDI. We were talking about why they were allowed into the game in the first place.
You are quite right though, the minotaur isn't available anymore. You can still see the oversized trait by going to the free-part of the DDI and typing in bugbear though.
Well, the real problem is that there's a number of existing minotaur characters using the MM writeup, which includes oversized. So, you have a sticky situation which basically comes down to two options: a) nerfing all the old minotaur characters, leaving them little choice in the matter, or b) grandfathering in the old minotaurs' oversized feature, but forcing new minotaurs to use the Dragon version. Both will probably leave a non-trivial number of people unhappy, so it's a tough call to make.
As well, there are a number of bugbear PC's with oversized, and whatever decision was made to deal with old minotaurs with oversized would no doubt set precedence for how bugbears are dealt with later. Similarly, this has the potential to leave some people unhappy, no matter what option is chosen.
In any case, to get this officially approved, at least three judges need to vote yes, and there needs to be two more yes votes than no votes. When both of those conditions are met for 48 continuous hours, the proposal passes.
Now, what needs to happen in order to convince enough judges to vote yes? That's a very good question, and I certainly don't have the answer.
Edit: Yeah, I know the feeling, covaithe. And I, at least, don't have any brilliant new ideas to solve all the problems.
I have a wonderful idea. We ignore the minotaur issue until PHB3 is approved, and vote on the rest of the articles. Then it can be just like how shifters and gnomes got updated from the MM to PHB2, and hopefully minotaurs will be given something better than what they have now.
Ok, so it's not so much "wonderful" as "lazy", but, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's not like we actually have a problem with minotaurs being oversized. We don't have a disproportionately large number of minotaur characters, and I don't get the feeling that the oversized characters are overshadowing their party members. So I am effectively suggesting that we do nothing, because at this point I'm not convinced anything needs to be done.
I haven't had time to read the articles in depth (so I won't be voting just yet) but people should at least vote on the article the OP wanted most urgently, and the rest of the non-minotaur stuff.
I think the better way to do it would be to say that brutal D12 weapons STAY D12 weapons. The whole issue was the transition to a 2D6 brutal weapon right? That way only the problem weapons are effected and everyone else with 'normal' weapons can go about their merry way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunamin
I think we have that in place with regards to Adventurer's Vault, at least. This is how I worded it, when I updated the charter in ancient times, but it might not be the best:
Yeah, I don't like that wording much. It's not clear exactly what happens if you try to take an oversized brutal weapon - does it become not brutal? Does it count as not oversized? Do they just not exist (why can't you make one that's larger than normal?)
I'd prefer to say, "oversized brutal weapons lose the brutal property" and then players wanting a giant brutal weapon can choose to have it not be brutal, or just use a weapon doing normal-sized damage and flavour it as being huge.
I'd propose a rewording, but then I couldn't vote on it...
My idea JoeNotCharles is that oversized and brutal would work together in every situation except when the base weapon has a D12 damage. In that situation, the damage die stays a D12. I wasn't wording it for proposal placement, just tossing out the idea.
If I was proposing, I'd say it would be this be added to Oversized:
Exception: Oversized Brutal weapons that start with a damage die of D12 do not change to damage dice of 2d6 due to the increased effectiveness of Brutal. In exchange for not increasing the dice, the player deals an additional point of damage [much the same way as a versatile weapon deals an extra point of damage when used two handed].
This answers all your questions.
Does it become not brutal? Nope, always brutal.
Does it count as not oversized? it counts as oversized and deals an extra point of damage because of it.
It seems a bit heavy handed to to just say you can only have one or the other when it's ONLY the d12 base damage weapons that are an issue.
We don't have a disproportionately large number of minotaur characters...
Not to sound argumentative, but yes we do and that's precisley why you are wary about the number of people who will be unhappy.
Last I checked we had something like 4 minotaurs and 3 bugbears out of 90 approved character. About 8% of all the PCs uses oversized weapon! It's a lot worse if you consider the STR and Melee based classes. The 4 minotaurs obviously all picked such classes and so they are about 20% of the fighters, STR cleric and Two-Bladed Rangers...
Considering these two races are hardly staples of the fantasy genre, it is a lot.
If we had some way to tell, I'd bet ten to one we'd have half less minotaurs and bugbears without the oversized stuff. It's a nigh certainty.
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