Hey all, as I'm planning to try my hand at DMing here for the first time, I thought I'd start a thread to discuss different techniques in running PbP games, and also maybe a bit about adventure design.
If you have any particular tricks, things that you find work well or maybe things that don't, please post them here!
It seems like it ought to work pretty well to keep things moving. One thing I was wondering (maybe Mal can answer), does this technique cause any problems as far as interrupt and opportunity actions go? Having the players roll for monsters' simple opportunity attacks is fine, but how do you handle stuff like goblin tactics (?) where the goblin can shift in response to a missed attack? Do you actually let the players move the goblin? How about if it's something more exotic, with a trigger condition you don't want to tell the players about advance?
I suppose these things are hard to handle in "regular" style of turn sequence, too, not just Mal's style... hidden combatants and traps could also be a problem. Surprises in general. How do you deal with it?
On a different note: adventure design. It looks to me like the PbP adventures here tend towards the scripted/set-piece style of design, rather than open-ended and event based.
Caveat: As mentioned, my PbP experience is limited, and I've hardly read every adventure thread here, so I could be completely wrong! But that's my impression. Also, I'm not trying to start some argument about "railroading" vs. "sandbox" here... but assuming I'm not completely off base, is there something about PbP that makes it harder to run a looser style? One thing that comes to mind is that you may not know who the players and PCs are in advance. I'd think this could make it a little harder to "prep for improvisation". Also, is there anything about having to come up with a complete proposal up front that leads to a more scripted style?
As a player in Mal's Zombies game, I can say thus far the combat has worked pretty well. And we just ran into a hidden monster in combat; I'm not sure if it's handled this way every time, but Mal sprung the monster on us on the enemies' turn, rather than as a readied action or an interrupt. Here's the post with the new monster's attack:
He's also done a few recons, where things we've said or done wouldn't have worked. In all, it's not intrusive at all, which surprised me. I considering stealing the idea for myself, as it's much more fuid than the more traditional plaeyr 1 - DM - Player 2 - etc. that I've run in the past.
I like the idea of a DM thread, and have more I'd probably like to add to a DM discussion (questions, really, as I ramp up for my own adventure) but sleep is calling my weak body to bed...
You might be interested in the Hoofchew behind the scenes thread, which goes over my first adventure here from a DM's perspective. Most of it is still pretty relevant, I think.
I've been watching Mal's combats with interest, too, and I tried my hand at it a bit myself in Closed Eye. I admit fudging the initiative slightly -- but only slightly; I got lucky on the rolls -- to get all the monsters in one block so I'd have to update less often. And I've been interpreting the players' actions as happening roughly in the order they post.
I think it works pretty well, but there's one thing that I think people should keep in mind when they set out to do this: it makes combat more dangerous for the players, because the DM can coordinate monster attacks more effectively. In theory the players can coordinate their attacks, too, but it's harder for them to do that in PbP, 'cause the back and forth of tactical planning slows things down just as much as adhering to strict initiative order. The DM only has to coordinate with themselves.
Still, I think it's probably a net win. 4e combat isn't nearly as dangerous for the PCs as in previous editions.
Cov - re:deadliness of combat - Especially at low levels, most 1st level PC's won't be killed by a greataxe wielding orc anymore.
One thing is the willingness to move forward if people are slow. I try to give 48 hrs or so, but if someone's lagging, feel free to NPC them. I'm also open to retcons, so if there is an interrupt, etc. I would just adjust and allow the PC's who fall below the action to re-do their actions (but keeping their rolls from the original action). Expect that the posting rate will drop off after the initial excitement. It's quite common that people will post a couple times a day when the addy first starts, but then it falls into a normal routine of about 1/day or so for most people. Personally, I find Maptools to be very beneficial to me when running combat. It takes a few minutes to get the map set-up, but you can input hp/ac/defenses and other notes right in the monster info so no need to reference other materials. This is helpful when using elites (or solos) as they usually last a few more rounds and it allows you to input the status effects that I'm sure they'll be under.
You already mentioned Mal's method of combat, so I think that's a big one (for me at least). I roll a d20 and use the average init score of the monsters to determine their group position. As Cov mentioned it does allow you to coordinate actions slightly more, but the group is usually able to overcome these with only minimal issues (see my game for this...stupid push powers knocking guys outta my cube).
As you've already done, feel free to drop a line to some of the other DM's around here that you like their playstyle and pick their brains from time to time. I think we're all refining our methods as we DM.
Hahaha just from my own personal experience I find the problems always arise when I feel pressured to rush a post in instead of waiting the extra few hours/day and doing it when I have the time (This morning in Broken Wards is a prime example).
My best advice is plan ahead, and make sure when you do anything you give yourself plenty of time and doublecheck your posts.
Personally, I find Maptools to be very beneficial to me when running combat. It takes a few minutes to get the map set-up, but you can input hp/ac/defenses and other notes right in the monster info so no need to reference other materials. This is helpful when using elites (or solos) as they usually last a few more rounds and it allows you to input the status effects that I'm sure they'll be under.
Maptool tip: you can attach a handout to tokens and show it within maptool. Right click on a token, select Edit (near the bottom), go to the Config tab at the right. In the Handout area at the lower right, you can drag an image, e.g. a screen capture of the monster's compendium entry. Thereafter, you can right click on the monster's token, pick Show Handout, and see the monster's stat block from within maptool:
I just use Gimp, with a layer for each token and some layers that I can hide for "status icons" (I usually just use one for "bloodied" and one for "dead"). I have a separate text file with a list of monsters and all the status effects. That way I can just cut and paste from my notes into the turn summary of all my posts, and it's not a big deal to have one copy of notepad and one copy of gimp open.
I tried maptool once, but I found that after exporting a screenshot, I had to open it with gimp and trim the edges anyway, so it was easier to just do all the editing in gimp.
It seems like it ought to work pretty well to keep things moving. One thing I was wondering (maybe Mal can answer), does this technique cause any problems as far as interrupt and opportunity actions go? Having the players roll for monsters' simple opportunity attacks is fine, but how do you handle stuff like goblin tactics (?) where the goblin can shift in response to a missed attack? Do you actually let the players move the goblin? How about if it's something more exotic, with a trigger condition you don't want to tell the players about advance?
As you pointed out, I ask the players to roll the OA (and I give the OA stats of the monsters) when they triggered one. And I never used goblins!
Kidding aside, the number of truly problematic situation is far smaller than you'd think. I ran a level 12 adventure and even then, with the more exotic abilities, I hardly had a problem. The number of abilities that, once triggered, would need you to retcon a whole round is... well, I have yet to find one! And given the pace of PbP, when a problematic ability crops up, you see it coming a mile away and have plenty of time to prepare.
I guess what I mean is that there are fewer problems than you'd expect before trying, and that I improvise an ad hoc solution to any problem that I encounter. And at a PbP's snail pace, it ain't that hard!
I can readily believe that the interrupt/surprise situations don't come up all that often.
Let me run one by you though and ask how you'd handle it. Say there's a trap in a corridor, where the first PC to move through an area triggers it, and it changes the terrain somehow. Maybe it releases a poison gas cloud that fills an area of the corridor. Several PC's make posts which involve moving their characters through this area. (This could happen even if you were enforcing initiative order, since several PCs can act and post in sequence in that case too.)
The first one through triggers the trap, and if the others take their posted mves they'll be going through the gas. Do you just rewind and allow them to redo their moves?
Another thing about rewinding like this in general. How do you typically handle rolls for moves that get retconned? Do you keep the rolls as long as the target and powers and stuff stay the same? I worry about things like, the original posted roll would have hit, but if you retcon the move for some reason that causes you to lose CA from flanking, that roll does not hit. Does that affect the player's decision whether or not to retcon? Or, say, you rolled a critical hit. Does that make you want to suck it up and move through the gas anyway, but if the outcome of the attack was still unknown, you might act differently?
For these reasons I'd almost think you should just always reroll if the DM announces the option to rewind, whether the player takes it or not... though that is still less than ideal. It will really stink from the player's POV if he's forced to reroll that critical hit even though he didn't want to change his action.
In the example you gave, I wouldn't have used a trap that triggers the exact moment the PC stepped on it in the first place, precisely because of the potential problems it could cause.
I if I wanted to use that type of trap, I'd rule that it takes a few moments before the cloud gas really kicks in (Think of those mines in movies where the characters step on it and they have the time to go 'oops' before it actually blows!).
Conveniently enough, a few moments would mean whenever I get to posting next. Therefore there would have been no retcon at all.
Yeah, that means I never used a pit-trap style of obstacle so far. But hey, I don't think my adventures have suffered from it.
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Also, I check my thread fairly regularly. A lot of retcon I did occured before every PCs have acted. If I see a problem, I stop it before it snowballs.
Considering rolls, in a retcon I keep the same roll and assign the PCs that need retconning the most logical course of action, trying to preserve the original intent.
My preference would be to let a PC do a complete replay of his turn only if he had expanded a major ressource in a way that has become illogical after a retcon.
But the thing is, in 10 fights I DMed on EN world this way, such a situation never occured! So it's kind of hypothetical to me.
While we're all asking questions of Mal, I've got one. How would you handle this situation, which came up in Closed Eye recently: Tander posts an action, which includes an active perception check to spot a hidden monster (which succeeds), and which includes a readied attack that would provoke an OA from the hidden monster, which he wouldn't have done if he'd known his check succeeded. Before I get around to posting, several other players post various actions.
What I did was allow Tander himself to change his action, but kept the actions from the other players, on the grounds that this was sort of all happening at once, too fast for them to react to Tander's (anticipated) warning. I think that worked out okay, but I still had to pause the action and wait for a (minimal) rewind.
The PC had just made a perception check then he told you what he wanted to do with the rest of his actions if he spotted something.
Since he still had his move left, I would have used it to shift him away so he could perform his intended action without getting OA.
If he had spent his move action previously but was a character with a comparable melee option, I would have substituted the power and kept the same roll.
If he had neither a move action left nor a decent melee attack to substitute for it, then I would have done the same as you did and done a minor rewind.
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Basically, I try to execute the stated intent of the player without screwing him. In this case, he wanted to spot something and wack it so any alterations to his stated intention that did not involve expanding an encounter/daily or getting unnecessarily hurt would have been fine by me.
I only go back for new instructions if the old ones are completely FUBAR.
Last edited by Mal Malenkirk; 17th August 2009 at 11:23 PM..
The big thing, I think (which my main adventure has utterly failed at, being on an isolated island...) is to build in a way to add new characters if somebody drops out. If it's set in Daunton it's easy to just swing by the tavern for reinforcements, but if it's somewhere else in the world you may need to be more creative.
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