Proposal: Allow Weapons used as implements to use Magic Powers.

[CaBaNa]

This is a heated debate!

Let's put it to vote, the discussion starts here.

Allow weapons used as implements to use magic powers.

P.s. I can't wait for Dragon 380 for Pok!

 

[stonegod]

Its definitely an intense debate. The discussion so far has been level-headed enough (a good sign of how ENWorld works).

As CaBaNa linked, my position is against this proposal. I won't vote yet so we can further discussion. But to clarify, I'm against using a weaplement's powers during an implement attack (unless the item calls out it can be used as an exception, such as the various sorcerer daggers).

CaBaNa: You should link to this thread in Discussion.

 

[Theroc]

This question may seem silly, but who gets an 'actual vote' in these? Do all the players discuss their opinions and the judges make a final call, or is this a totally republic system where EVERY L4W member who posts a vote in this thread gets a tally?

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

EVERY L4W member

*cough* LEB *cough*

It's the former. It's like a representative democracy, except the judges decide who becomes a judge.

 

[stonegod]

This question may seem silly, but who gets an 'actual vote' in these? Do all the players discuss their opinions and the judges make a final call, or is this a totally republic system where EVERY L4W member who posts a vote in this thread gets a tally?

Details about judges are here and details about proposal voting are here.

A proposal thread is for general discussion so the judges can hear the opinions of others, for everyone to argue for different positions and such. The final decision is with the judges (though things can be revisisted as pointed out in the Proposal rules above).

 

[renau1g]

Its definitely an intense debate. The discussion so far has been level-headed enough (a good sign of how ENWorld works).

Yeah, I was following it pretty closely and I've been thinking about it, but no conclusion yet. Was hoping for some more discussion here.

P.S. I've posted a thread in 4e rules as well.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...ments-weapon-powers-question.html#post4975390

 

[Velmont]

Considering the FAQ refer to Pact Dagger and Holy Avenger, two weapons that have no power.

Considering these two items:

Flaming Weapon

Staff of Acid and Flame

Considering the Flaming weapon tell: 'dealt by this weapon' because it is a Flaming Weapon, so for a Flaming Dagger, it would probably read: 'dealt by this dagger'.

Considering when you hit with a power using an implement, and the power is cast using that implement, you hit with the implement (and here, I consider only the implement giving a bonus to attack for dual-implement wielder feat).

Considering all that, I think I would allow, as a DM, my players to use the power of a magic weapon for a Power that ask for an Implement, if the character can use that weapon as an implement.

But I see nothing that clearly state I would be either right or wrong about it.

That is my 2 coppers.

 

[stonegod]

The Holy Avenger does have a power; it cannot be used in a attack by either definition. However, the point from the FAQ still stands regardless.

My (strict) reading of the FAQ answer clearly states that you cannot use the power of a flaming dagger with an implement attack (as it is neither a Critical, Property, or Enhancement).

You can use the power of the Staff of Acid of Flame with an implement for two reasons:
- A staff is an implement already
- The power explicitly calls out "when used as an implement"
I'm not sure what the Staff of Acid and Flame has to do with your argument.

 

[Velmont]

One point that have been raised was a chance of abuse in case of Flaming/Frost/Shocking... weapon. In the case of the flaming dagger, giving the Fire keyword to all your powers. That would allow:

- Sorcerers to ignore 5/10/15 to all his powers (he is not forced to take only power already with fire keyword).
- Dragonborn arcane character give him +1/+2/+3 to hit with all powers (because taking Draconic Spellcaster become a no brainer, and you can be quite sure his breath will be fire).
- Tiefling get +1 to hit/damage (Hellfire blood)

And that's are the one I can think of at the moment, and I surely miss more.

But now, you see there is a staff that do the almost the same, instead of having a daily, it allow you to switch to Acid (nice for our Dragonborn Dragon Sorcerer with Admixture Breath Fire/Acid), so that's one less point to concern about I think.

Also, the staff explicitly express it can be use only as an implement, it just disallow to us his power with a Weapon keyword power, even if a staff can be use as a quatterstaff.

 

[renau1g]

The only difference is that the staff only allows you to convert acid to fire, or vice versa. Cold cannot be changed into acid/fire, nor can lightning, or thunder, or poison, etc.

Can the staff implements be used as quarterstaffs in 4e? I wasn't 100% on that.