Proposal: Allow Weapons used as implements to use Magic Powers.

[CaBaNa]

This is a heated debate!

Let's put it to vote, the discussion starts here.

Allow weapons used as implements to use magic powers.

P.s. I can't wait for Dragon 380 for Pok!

[stonegod]

Its definitely an intense debate. The discussion so far has been level-headed enough (a good sign of how ENWorld works).

As CaBaNa linked, my position is against this proposal. I won't vote yet so we can further discussion. But to clarify, I'm against using a weaplement's powers during an implement attack (unless the item calls out it can be used as an exception, such as the various sorcerer daggers).

CaBaNa: You should link to this thread in Discussion.

[Theroc]

This question may seem silly, but who gets an 'actual vote' in these? Do all the players discuss their opinions and the judges make a final call, or is this a totally republic system where EVERY L4W member who posts a vote in this thread gets a tally?

[TwoHeadsBarking]

Originally Posted by Theroc

EVERY L4W member

*cough* LEB *cough*

It's the former. It's like a representative democracy, except the judges decide who becomes a judge.

[stonegod]

Originally Posted by Theroc

This question may seem silly, but who gets an 'actual vote' in these? Do all the players discuss their opinions and the judges make a final call, or is this a totally republic system where EVERY L4W member who posts a vote in this thread gets a tally?

Details about judges are here and details about proposal voting are here.

A proposal thread is for general discussion so the judges can hear the opinions of others, for everyone to argue for different positions and such. The final decision is with the judges (though things can be revisisted as pointed out in the Proposal rules above).

[renau1g]

Originally Posted by stonegod

Its definitely an intense debate. The discussion so far has been level-headed enough (a good sign of how ENWorld works).

Yeah, I was following it pretty closely and I've been thinking about it, but no conclusion yet. Was hoping for some more discussion here.

P.S. I've posted a thread in 4e rules as well.

Implements/Weapon Powers Question

[Velmont]

Considering the FAQ refer to Pact Dagger and Holy Avenger, two weapons that have no power.

Considering these two items:

Flaming Weapon

Staff of Acid and Flame

Considering the Flaming weapon tell: 'dealt by this weapon' because it is a Flaming Weapon, so for a Flaming Dagger, it would probably read: 'dealt by this dagger'.

Considering when you hit with a power using an implement, and the power is cast using that implement, you hit with the implement (and here, I consider only the implement giving a bonus to attack for dual-implement wielder feat).

Considering all that, I think I would allow, as a DM, my players to use the power of a magic weapon for a Power that ask for an Implement, if the character can use that weapon as an implement.

But I see nothing that clearly state I would be either right or wrong about it.

That is my 2 coppers.

[stonegod]

The Holy Avenger does have a power; it cannot be used in a attack by either definition. However, the point from the FAQ still stands regardless.

My (strict) reading of the FAQ answer clearly states that you cannot use the power of a flaming dagger with an implement attack (as it is neither a Critical, Property, or Enhancement).

You can use the power of the Staff of Acid of Flame with an implement for two reasons:
- A staff is an implement already
- The power explicitly calls out "when used as an implement"
I'm not sure what the Staff of Acid and Flame has to do with your argument.

[Velmont]

One point that have been raised was a chance of abuse in case of Flaming/Frost/Shocking... weapon. In the case of the flaming dagger, giving the Fire keyword to all your powers. That would allow:

- Sorcerers to ignore 5/10/15 to all his powers (he is not forced to take only power already with fire keyword).
- Dragonborn arcane character give him +1/+2/+3 to hit with all powers (because taking Draconic Spellcaster become a no brainer, and you can be quite sure his breath will be fire).
- Tiefling get +1 to hit/damage (Hellfire blood)

And that's are the one I can think of at the moment, and I surely miss more.

But now, you see there is a staff that do the almost the same, instead of having a daily, it allow you to switch to Acid (nice for our Dragonborn Dragon Sorcerer with Admixture Breath Fire/Acid), so that's one less point to concern about I think.

Also, the staff explicitly express it can be use only as an implement, it just disallow to us his power with a Weapon keyword power, even if a staff can be use as a quatterstaff.

[renau1g]

The only difference is that the staff only allows you to convert acid to fire, or vice versa. Cold cannot be changed into acid/fire, nor can lightning, or thunder, or poison, etc.

Can the staff implements be used as quarterstaffs in 4e? I wasn't 100% on that.

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBarking

*cough* LEB *cough*

It's the former. It's like a representative democracy, except the judges decide who becomes a judge.

It was late last night, and I got mixed up at which place I was in, as I have the tabs right next to one another... >.>

In any case, in my inexperienced opinion, I don't think it would be incredibly game breaking, and more of a flavor thing(except apparently the examples Velmont gives) I won't profess to be very informed as to 4th edition's balance mathmatics, but I'd say, "Give it a try, if stuff starts to break, change it." Fluff-wise, the change could always be attributed to something with the item weakening or changing and no longer affecting powers in a way no character IC can figure out.

Just my two coppers.

[Mowgli]

Hello, all! I feel a little strange chiming in here, as I know very little about 4E. However, in creating an Assassin character recently, I came across a bit of info in the Dragon article that may give a hint of the Wizard's intent on this subject:

IMPLEMENTS
Assassins focus their shadow energy through a ki focus, which is not an object they wield but a reservoir of magical power within themselves. When using a ki focus, an assassin taps into the power of shadow magic and channels it into both implement and weapon attacks.

You can imbue your ki focus with magic as if it were a physical implement. When you have a magic ki focus, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of assassin powers and assassin paragon path powers that have the implement keyword. You can also add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of any weapon attack you make using a weapon with which you’re proficient.

You can also use a weapon with which you’re proficient as an implement. While wielding the weapon as an implement, the characteristics of the weapon you use—proficiency bonus, damage die, and weapon properties (such as defensive or high crit)—are irrelevant to your implement powers.

If you have a magic ki focus and wield a magic weapon, you choose before you use an attack power whether to draw on the magic of your ki focus or to employ the magic of your weapon. Your choice determines which enhancement bonus, critical hit effects, and magic item properties and powers you can apply to attacks with that power. You can’t, for example, use the enhancement bonus of your ki focus and the property of your magic weapon with the same attack power.

I'm not sure whether (or how) it actually bears on the argument but it seems like it does to me. The last paragraph is the one that seems most pertinent.

[Kalidrev]

Unfortunately, the Ki Focus entry has little to do with Weaplements other than the fact that the assassin uses them. It still doesn't clear up the question as to what parts of the magic weapon entry can be used when a Weaplement is used as an implement as opposed to when it is used as a weapon.

On a side note, I can't wait until they come out with some real Ki Focus items for the assassin. Hopefully that will come with the December Dragon article...

[TwoHeadsBarking]

I agree with stonegod's interpretation of the rules. However, I'm not sure if it would really be breaking things to go against the FAQ.

According to the Character Builder you can use a staff implement as a staff weapon as well. I mean, that's also true according to common sense, but that doesn't always apply in this game.

The problem with testing things out and changing them later is what if there's still a disagreement as to whether or not it's balanced? At least right now only theoretical characters are being affected by it.

[elecgraystone]

Ah good. I was going to suggest a proposal/vote. My stance was clear in the other thread, so I'll just comment on post here.

Originally Posted by Velmont

- Sorcerers to ignore 5/10/15 to all his powers (he is not forced to take only power already with fire keyword).
- Dragonborn arcane character give him +1/+2/+3 to hit with all powers (because taking Draconic Spellcaster become a no brainer, and you can be quite sure his breath will be fire).
- Tiefling get +1 to hit/damage (Hellfire blood)

My counterpoint to this would be the winterfrost combo. Combat advantage and +5 damage all the time and it's allowed now.

Originally Posted by stonegod

A staff is an implement already.

Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBarking

According to the Character Builder you can use a staff implement as a staff weapon as well.

Staff is a weapon group like light blades and there is one weapon in that group; the quarterstaff. As such anyone that can use staves as implements could use a weapon staff as an implement.

And to counter stonegod, the staff is a weapon that can be used as an implement just like heavy blades can be used by swordmages. It seems odd to me I can crit with a weapon attack using a Staff of Power and you'd say it wouldn't work since it's from an implement. Personally as long as the wording still works it seems to me it should work.

[Velmont]

Originally Posted by elecgraystone

My counterpoint to this would be the winterfrost combo. Combat advantage and +5 damage all the time and it's allowed now.

Great potential, but not automatic. The first hit isn't subject from the CA and Cold Vulnerability (unless it come from another source) and if you miss, you will lose those advantage. Also, you need to be paragon. But for a Rogue, I agree it is a welcoming way to place your sneak, and when you miss, you'll have other ways to get your CA anyway.

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBarking

The problem with testing things out and changing them later is what if there's still a disagreement as to whether or not it's balanced? At least right now only theoretical characters are being affected by it.

Well, outside playtesting it extensively somewhere, it would seem to me the best method is to try it and see what happens, letting players know that relying on it or building a concept around it is ill-advised as the concept is being playtested. But then again, I'm the type of person more prone to let things fly unless I see they are obviously breaking things.

[stonegod]

Its much more difficult to put the genie back in the bottle in Living games: See the minotaur/bugbear/large-weapon issues in L4W, as an example. This is one reason I tend to be more conservative in Living games (while I still would rule exactly the same here for weaplements in my RL game, there have been somethings in the 3.5 LEB that I was fine banning that I allowed in my RL game).

[Velmont]

I agree on that point from stonegod, and as I stated on my first post, I would allow it in my RL game, but here, I'm less sure of it. And stonegod is true on that one. It is better to give a candy after a few month because WoTC clarify things to everyone rather than taking it back once it is eaten.

[stonegod]

Originally Posted by elecgraystone

And to counter stonegod, the staff is a weapon that can be used as an implement just like heavy blades can be used by swordmages. It seems odd to me I can crit with a weapon attack using a Staff of Power and you'd say it wouldn't work since it's from an implement. Personally as long as the wording still works it seems to me it should work.

Actually, if I was consistent, I'd say way happens in undefined. The FAQ is clear on what happens if you use a weapon as an implement, but not the other way around. Its a problem tied to the staff. But yes, if I were to extend the way I ruled with weapons, I'd agree the Staff of Power's power could not be used for weapon-based attacks (though there is a wrinkle that the power itself does not mention its use as an implement or weapon).