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Challenging Challenge Ratings...again

I must say, I am impressed by many of the things 4E has done. It scales pretty darn well, and its fun to play. I playtested some stuff the other night. First time I ever had fun playtesting anything. (Usually its just hell to remember 50 billion things)

3E did many things right.
It streamlined the game compared to previous editions. (no more consulting 100 gazillion tables, or backwards AC progressions, or D% rolls)
It presented an easily adaptable system that could, with a bit of elbow grease, apply to anything. (Sci-fi, Fantasy, Modern, Horror, Etc)
It also was, and still is, one of the few game systems where the monsters and PCs play by the same rules. (usually)
Strategy levels were also quite high as preparing for a battle before hand was more important then the tactics that went into it. (Since in 3E Fighter tactics = Charge in, then full attack until it dies)

4E seems like a nice extension of 3E.
It further streamlines the game.
(Everything being presented in the same format makes things really easy to run or design; Non-combat things, like professions and the like are left to GMs because no rule will ever cover every situation)
It is adaptable. (you can easily have psionics, or Wuxia, or even modern)
And while monsters and PCs play by the same rules, they are not built by them, so If theres a kind of monster or encounter you want to model, you are not restricted to plugging tables and getting a result you didn't intend. (Like a Marilith being forced to use large-sized weapons due to it's size, when its arms should only medium...)
Tactics are in a much higher quantity then strategy, since the game is most action packed during combat, why not make them more exciting and meaningful?

Whatever the reason, whether we like or dislike 3E or 4E and how much, is a choice each of us must make. I personally think its too early to judge, but I like what I see as far as 4E goes. It takes everything I like about 3E, and over all makes it more fun. I can still run my same old low-magic, high-adventure/intrigue setting in 4E, with next to no Retcon. But with 4E, its more fun to play. (For me at least, your results may vary.)
 

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Hiya mate! :)

Anabstercorian said:
I've read 4e. I like the tactical game they've presented, though it looks to me that things will bog down badly at the high end due to the fact that hit points go up up up and damage only goes up.

Leave that to me. ;)

Although that said, I don't think the problem is necessarily high hit points but rather, lots of automatic recovery abilities and ways to regain hit points.

PC hit points are actually pretty low, while monster hit points are relatively high. Conversely PC damage output (with dailies anyway) is significantly better than typical monster damage.

Also, check out the Tarrasque battle report posted in the 4E rules forum. Tarrasque vs. five 30th-level PCs. Tarrasque got obliterated in seven rounds without landing a blow (the PCs took some damage from their own abilities) - though it rolled some statistically improbable rolls which meant it got stunned virtually every round.

Factors to address. A 'Hard' solo challenge is presumably one 3 levels higher than the PCs (assuming 5 PCs). I also still think several of the monsters have their damage outputs notably below where they should be - and the Tarrasque is the perfect example of that. Thirdly, for the example being a one off, the PCs were able to expend all their dailies and action points on this fight.

There is no strategic game any more that I can perceive. With the removal of so much world-affecting power - no Wish's, no conjurations, no transmutations, gimped teleportations, minimized scrying - characters have little option other than to confront their opponents in tactical battles.

Well I think certainly 'fantasy' (fake) strategies have been nerfed, but not necessarily 'real world' strategies.

I think Conjurations will return with the Sorcerer class, Transmutations with the Druid class.

Personally I am glad 'buffing' has been removed, it was just an annoyance. 4E has a sort of reverse buffing from using your Encounter/Daily powers.

Hopefully later rituals will expand the potential of characters to interact with the world on a less square-and-stab basis, but I'm not optimistic. For this reason, 4e is failing to thrill me. It's very bland.

The Rituals are a bit vanilla, but I think the mechanic for them certainly has potential.

I do, however, admit that this paucity of flavor and strategic influence gives you, UK, a lot of room to re-introduce old capabilities in new, tactically managable forms.

Certainly Summoning is one area I'll dip my hand into. Probably not buffing though. Shapechange is likely to be a factor of immortal play, but it may be wise to see the Druid class before then - although I hate waiting so maybe not.

I do have this awesome new feature planned regarding immortals which will definately be right up your strategy alley. But its all hush hush for now. :cool:

I am somewhat amused at how incredibly right I was in my earlier guess about the split between tactical abilities (powers) and strategic abilities (rituals). I am dismayed at how utterly gimped those strategic abilities were.

Tactical elements are far easier to balance than Strategic elements.
 

Hey Ltheb matey! :)

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
I must say, I am impressed by many of the things 4E has done. It scales pretty darn well, and its fun to play. I playtested some stuff the other night. First time I ever had fun playtesting anything. (Usually its just hell to remember 50 billion things)

Sounds cool. I'll pencil you down to playest the 4E Immortals Handbook then. :D

4E seems like a nice extension of 3E.
It further streamlines the game.
(Everything being presented in the same format makes things really easy to run or design; Non-combat things, like professions and the like are left to GMs because no rule will ever cover every situation)
It is adaptable. (you can easily have psionics, or Wuxia, or even modern)

Wuxia vs. Kaiju.

And while monsters and PCs play by the same rules, they are not built by them, so If theres a kind of monster or encounter you want to model, you are not restricted to plugging tables and getting a result you didn't intend. (Like a Marilith being forced to use large-sized weapons due to it's size, when its arms should only medium...)

For designers (and DMs) this is just the greatest thing ever.

Tactics are in a much higher quantity then strategy, since the game is most action packed during combat, why not make them more exciting and meaningful?

One of the problems with Strategies (and in that I mean fantasy strategies) is that they sort of make you tactically lazy. Wheres the fun when your PCs are so buffed, prepped, cohorted and with summoned monsters in tow that the actual encounter itself is a cake-walk?

Whatever the reason, whether we like or dislike 3E or 4E and how much, is a choice each of us must make. I personally think its too early to judge, but I like what I see as far as 4E goes. It takes everything I like about 3E, and over all makes it more fun. I can still run my same old low-magic, high-adventure/intrigue setting in 4E, with next to no Retcon. But with 4E, its more fun to play. (For me at least, your results may vary.)

I guess in the end everyone has to make up their own mind about it.
 

Soooo.... not actually a rules question here...

I went out and got Grim Tales, in part because of the CR system. Was there a v6 actually done up, and if so what book has it these days?

Thanks.
 

Hey Scurvy_Platypus! :)

Scurvy_Platypus said:
Soooo.... not actually a rules question here...

I went out and got Grim Tales, in part because of the CR system. Was there a v6 actually done up, and if so what book has it these days?

Thanks.

Version 6 is sort of done. I'll be including it within my next (and last) 3.5 Edition product.

Haven't actually got a name for that book yet, though I am leaning towards Godsend...seems fitting. What do you all think? :)

I'm usually brilliant with release dates *cough* and I am looking towards perhaps an August release for that book. So exactly when it will be out is anyones guess. :eek:
 

Belzamus

First Post
You mean August 2009, right? :D

I, personally, would be more than willing to wait that long if it meant we got more of your 3.5 work. So sa that you're abandoning it.

I'll never get to see the Antimatter Golem now. :(

(Or the Black Hole Dragon, or the Cimerial, or any of the Umbrals) :( :(

Well, I hope some of them make it in at least.


Oh well, I'll buy it either way.
 

Hey Belzamus matey! :)

Belzamus said:
You mean August 2009, right? :D

...given my track record... :eek:

Belzamus said:
I, personally, would be more than willing to wait that long if it meant we got more of your 3.5 work. So sad that you're abandoning it.

I'm sorry. I simply have grown to dislike 3rd Edition and I don't really enjoy working with the system anymore. If you are not having fun making this stuff then its time to try something different (in this case 4E).

The last thing I ever want to do is disappoint anyone, but if your hearts not in it, better to call it a day.

Belzamus said:
I'll never get to see the Antimatter Golem now. :(

(Or the Black Hole Dragon, or the Cimerial, or any of the Umbrals) :( :(

Well, you'll probably see them, just not in 3.5E. :eek:

I still say some enterprising soul could do a conversion of 4E to 3E - perhaps if someone came up with a Level converter, that might be the first step. Though where the heck would we find one of those just laying about.

http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff24.htm

Belzamus said:
Well, I hope some of them make it in at least.

I already promised dante the Nosferatu - otherwise I'd never hear the end of it. I am sure I will sneak a few others in there.

Belzamus said:
Oh well, I'll buy it either way.

I appreciate the support.
 

dante58701

Banned
Banned
Upper_Krust said:
I already promised dante the Nosferatu - otherwise I'd never hear the end of it. I am sure I will sneak a few others in there.

It is GREATLY appreciated!!! =^.^=

*slinks back into his dark corner and huddles around a warm bottle of rum*
 

Belzamus

First Post
Well, I won't give up hope, UK. Your new material for 4E might actually be enough to make me want to play it, since my biggest gripe right now with the system is that it can't support my divine/cosmic/sidereal level campaign setting.
 

Hey Belzamus dude! :)

Belzamus said:
Well, I won't give up hope, UK. Your new material for 4E might actually be enough to make me want to play it, since my biggest gripe right now with the system is that it can't support my divine/cosmic/sidereal level campaign setting.

A temporary nuisance I'll soon be looking to remedy.
 

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