Challenging Challenge Ratings...again

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Kerrick dude!

Oh, BTW... I think I've asked this before, but how would LA factor into the ECL? And is LA = CR? Or should I just calculate all the bonuses gained from monster levels, multiply by 0.83, and use that instead?

Level Adjustment should be Hit Dice subtracted from ECL.

 

[dante58701]

Just breathe easy... just over a week from now you'll be sloughing off the detritus of 3.x and moving on to what looks like much more conducive ground.

The only detritus is WOTC pseudoMMORPG. And that's putting is as politely as humanly possible considering the excessive amount of mindless suckage it represents to true D&Drs.

It has made a eunuch out of tabletop dungeoncrawling.

Fortunately some game designers aren't basking in the glory of the "evil stepmother" company and remaining with 3.x so that when WOTC pseudoMMORPG falls flat on it's face in record time and kills itself the way magic cards killed what was left of TSR, the rest of us will still have a game to play that's worth the money spent on it.

This also means that 3.x fans will at least get SOME of the 3.x we were initially promised.

This switch over is such a letdown for so many.

I can only hope that when WOTC bombs this one like they bombed the rest, that it drags WOTC under so badly that they have to sell it to someone who actually knows what the hell they're doing.

I hear Monte Cook and Paizo are doing excellent things already.

 

[Kerrick]

The only detritus is WOTC pseudoMMORPG. And that's putting is as politely as humanly possible considering the excessive amount of mindless suckage it represents to true D&Drs.

It has made a eunuch out of tabletop dungeoncrawling.

Fortunately some game designers aren't basking in the glory of the "evil stepmother" company and remaining with 3.x so that when WOTC pseudoMMORPG falls flat on it's face in record time and kills itself the way magic cards killed what was left of TSR, the rest of us will still have a game to play that's worth the money spent on it.

This also means that 3.x fans will at least get SOME of the 3.x we were initially promised.

This switch over is such a letdown for so many.

Hey Dante, tell us how you really feel.

Honestly, it's not worth getting that worked up over. Your books aren't going to burst into flame and burn to ash on June 6th. WotC isn't going to send goons to your house to make you play 4E (or else!). I don't like 4E either, but I've got more important things to expend my energy on, like my own version of the 3.75 rules.

 

[Kerrick]

Hey UK, got another question for you. I know there were rules for creating constructs (statwise, not literally) in Ascension, but since i lost my copy, I can't access them. How did the natural armor go again? v5 says material hardness + HD, but that doesn't seem right - the greater stone golem from the MM (42 HD) would have an AC of 61 (-2 size, -2 Dex, +55 natural)!

Level Adjustment should be Hit Dice subtracted from ECL.

What about creatures with higher HD than ECL? Do they have +0 LA? ECL - HD seems awfully odd... a dragonne, for instance, would have only LA +1 (cohort). Same with a drider.

BTW, I found a list of creatures in the DMG for the cohorts - the DMG uses straight up ECL, whereas the ELH uses some screwy-ass system. ECL works a lot more easily, so I'll go with that.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya Kerrick mate!

Hey UK, got another question for you. I know there were rules for creating constructs (statwise, not literally) in Ascension, but since i lost my copy, I can't access them.

Do you mean, in the Epic Bestiary? If so, feel free to email me and I'll send you a replacement copy of the pdf.

How did the natural armor go again? v5 says material hardness + HD, but that doesn't seem right - the greater stone golem from the MM (42 HD) would have an AC of 61 (-2 size, -2 Dex, +55 natural)!

Its correct, but you would need to be a 42nd-level caster to create a 42 HD golem. At which point a Stone Golem would be all but worthless and you would be better off creating a Mercury Golem or something like that.

What about creatures with higher HD than ECL? Do they have +0 LA? ECL - HD seems awfully odd... a dragonne, for instance, would have only LA +1 (cohort). Same with a drider.

In the Epic Bestiary there are some creatures with a negative LA.

BTW, I found a list of creatures in the DMG for the cohorts - the DMG uses straight up ECL, whereas the ELH uses some screwy-ass system. ECL works a lot more easily, so I'll go with that.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey dante mate!

The only detritus is WOTC pseudoMMORPG. And that's putting is as politely as humanly possible considering the excessive amount of mindless suckage it represents to true D&Drs.

It has made a eunuch out of tabletop dungeoncrawling.

Fortunately some game designers aren't basking in the glory of the "evil stepmother" company and remaining with 3.x so that when WOTC pseudoMMORPG falls flat on it's face in record time and kills itself the way magic cards killed what was left of TSR, the rest of us will still have a game to play that's worth the money spent on it.

This also means that 3.x fans will at least get SOME of the 3.x we were initially promised.

This switch over is such a letdown for so many.

I can only hope that when WOTC bombs this one like they bombed the rest, that it drags WOTC under so badly that they have to sell it to someone who actually knows what the hell they're doing.

Unfortunately (for you that is dante), the news (on ENWorld a day or two ago) is that WotC are going back to the printers already for a second print run even though the books are not yet out, with even the initial preorders already having 4E eclipsed 3E's pre-order numbers.

Personally I can only see 4E be a complete success. It just ticks all the right boxes. I don't see any area where 3E is superior.

I hear Monte Cook and Paizo are doing excellent things already.

I wish all those sticking with 3E the best of luck. I just cannot fathom how anything they do will be remotely competitive with 4E without reworking virtually all of existing 3E. I don't think you can patch 3/3.5E and make it better than 4E. Ultimately I think Monte and Paizo will jump on the 4E bandwagon within 18-24 months.

 

[dante58701]

Hey dante mate!

Hey there slacker. =^.^=

Unfortunately (for you that is dante), the news (on ENWorld a day or two ago) is that WotC are going back to the printers already for a second print run even though the books are not yet out, with even the initial preorders already having 4E eclipsed 3E's pre-order numbers.

It's only temporary, just a boom in sales due to clever marketing (deception, lying, sycophantic pandering of the masses, ect.), it won't last more than a couple years at most.

Personally I can only see 4E be a complete success. It just ticks all the right boxes. I don't see any area where 3E is superior.

This of course is purely opinion and speculation. All new things see a boom in the beginning. But with the value of the American dollar falling, jobs being in short supply, and a lot of gamers (and former employees) being disgruntled with WOTC, I can definitely envision 4.0 going under in about 5-6 years. WOTC has put more into advertising 4.0 and it will of course appeal to MMORPG addicts since it might as well be one.

It's just going to be the next Evercrack, not a pursuit of the intellectuals in our society (although a few misguided ones will pursue it...there are always a few).

I wish all those sticking with 3E the best of luck. I just cannot fathom how anything they do will be remotely competitive with 4E without reworking virtually all of existing 3E. I don't think you can patch 3/3.5E and make it better than 4E. Ultimately I think Monte and Paizo will jump on the 4E bandwagon within 18-24 months.

It's good that you're being a sport about it all, but I think a move to 4E would ultimately lead to a decline of older gamers purchasing anything from WOTC. Likely there will be a Cadre of older gamers that will get so fed up with it all that they will somehow get the rights to all true editions of Dungeons & Dragons (3.X and earlier) and reprint them for those who want them. This would probably be far more profitable in the long run.

I can already guess what your response will be since it seems you are trying to get WOTC to notice your work (a deal in the making there Krusty?). It will just be more of you defending the wonders of 4.0, which I still fail to see since I'm a fan of detailed abilities, not overly simplified numerical crunch (which is all 4.0 really is).

What I think you fail to realize is that while 4.0 is easier and simpler, easier and simpler is also BORING. If I wanted easier and simpler...I wouldn't be playing tabletop RPG, I'd be playing MMORPG, which takes the guess work out of everything.

Half the fun of 3.x is its EXTREMELY complex and customizable nature. It has rules and statistics for every imaginable scenario. It adds more FLAVOR to the campaign than 4.0's cardboard, half-measure rules and statistics.

It would seem that the majority of new gamers are much lazier than the older generations of RPG'rs, having been pampered by MMORPG games they tend to use less of their brains and can't handle complex computations on the fly without using a calculator.

While this doesn't necessarily make them idiots, they certainly aren't the same pocket protector wearing, pencil using, dice grabbling, nacho eating, soda pilfering, supernerds that most older gamers are.

Younger generations are more prone to come from the mainstream of society than ever before. Neckbeards are becoming their own society as a result and are further removed from the very games they helped create. Point in case being Gygax, who was not at all pleased with 4.0's existence.

Idiotic comment edited by Moderator Upper_Krust.

 

[Kerrick]

I wish all those sticking with 3E the best of luck. I just cannot fathom how anything they do will be remotely competitive with 4E without reworking virtually all of existing 3E. I don't think you can patch 3/3.5E and make it better than 4E.

The point you're missing, UK, is not that Paizo is trying to make 3.75 better than 4E; they're trying to make it better than 3.5. They know they can't possibly compete with the juggernaut that is WotC, nor do they care to - they want to pick up all the people who are sticking with 3.5 and make a game that will be more appealing to them by fixing the flaws in the system. That being said, I tend to agree that I don't think you can maintain complete backwards compatibility by doing so - it'd be something along the lines of going from 1E to 2E, not 3E to 3.5.

Ultimately I think Monte and Paizo will jump on the 4E bandwagon within 18-24 months.

Monte won't convert - he's got AE.

It's only temporary, just a boom in sales due to clever marketing (deception, lying, sycophantic pandering of the masses, ect.), it won't last more than a couple years at most.

You know, I'm starting to think you're actually serious, not just spewing random vitriol.

Likely there will be a Cadre of older gamers that will get so fed up with it all that they will somehow get the rights to all true editions of Dungeons & Dragons (3.X and earlier) and reprint them for those who want them.

Misguided, too. You think WotC will EVER give up the rights ANY edition?

I personally think it killed him.

Wow. Just.... wow. I don't even know what to say to that one.

 

[dante58701]

The point you're missing, UK, is not that Paizo is trying to make 3.75 better than 4E; they're trying to make it better than 3.5. They know they can't possibly compete with the juggernaut that is WotC, nor do they care to - they want to pick up all the people who are sticking with 3.5 and make a game that will be more appealing to them by fixing the flaws in the system. That being said, I tend to agree that I don't think you can maintain complete backwards compatibility by doing so - it'd be something along the lines of going from 1E to 2E, not 3E to 3.5.

Definitely one of my points of contention with Krusty thinking he can reverse engineer 4.0 into 3.X or vice versa. It's incredibly shortsighted thinking, it wouldn't even be the same creature.

Monte won't convert - he's got AE.

Here's to hoping that he's oldschool enough to not betray oldschoolers. Thus far he's definitely shown himself to be a ROCK in that department. I definitely hope he keeps it up. I intend to buy a lot more of his 3.X books in the future.

You know, I'm starting to think you're actually serious, not just spewing random vitriol.

It's not so much that I'm angry as disappointed and sickened by the complete abandonment of decades long loyal D&D fans by WOTC. To completely discontinue such a popular line is to leave everyone hanging, when they didn't even finish all their proposed book ideas.

As for my statement, I truly believe that it will end badly for them. I've been on other forums and most people are NOT happy about the switch, no matter what WOTC tells you. I've seen nothing but complaints, except, on Enworld, which tends to cater to WOTC anyways.

I don't really blame EnWorld for it, WOTC is a corporate Titan that just refuses to die. But in the end, all Titans end up in a prison or grave of their own making.

Misguided, too. You think WotC will EVER give up the rights ANY edition?

Nah, I definitely think they will cling to it. It's not so much misguided as wishful thinking. But, it could happen. Stranger things have...like WOTC producing 4.0 and making it this sanctimoniously mystifying secret just to sucker in the masses.

Wow. Just.... wow. I don't even know what to say to that one.

Not many would. =^.^= As a general rule, if Gary Gygax wasn't very happy about a particular edition, I tend to scrutinize it and at least find out why. He was one of the fathers of D&D and without him there would be no D&D. Alive or dead, it's really his baby, not WOTC's baby. No matter how much they try to usurp his throne, it will always be his.

Of course I mean this in a purely figurative stance.

 

[Center-of-All]

Ummm, dante, you do realise that Gary had just as much dislike of editions 2 aned 3 as he did 4, right? He simply refused to acknowledge the legitimacy of any edition he didn't have a part in making.

As for any rule for any situation, I think you're sorely overestimating 3E with that. If you were talking about GURPS or Hero, I think I could agree. D&D (of any edition) is far too entrenched in it's own legacy and genre to be truly comprehensive.