Huge Fire Elemental CR7?

Pure rogues have hard time fighting against something immune to crit. But they can still hold the line to protect mages and such, when the opponent is a not so clever big melee monster (elementals are INT 6). Rogues should have 5+ ranks in tumble and thus may have good AC when fighting defensively or using total defense. Even with Spring Attack, a huge elemental cannot go through squares actually occupied by a medium-sized PC.

And, as already pointed out, Elementals have weak will save. Almighty Glitterdust is so popular isn't it?. Once blinded, they cannot use Spring Attack effectively.

Starbuck_II said:

Did not houseruling Electricity gets a save bonus (same everyone getting a penalty to save) water make the battle harder?
There is a good chance that it wouldn't have been that bad if you didn't change it.

Plus, you are talking about a flooded room with water elementals. Giving them bonuses makes them tougher.

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No, I gave a situational saving throw penalty against electricity effects for being entirely in water, which caused in at least one instance a failed reflex save on the part of the elementals when it would have been a success. Of course, this could have been bad for the PCs, too, so the Bard had to carefully aim the spells (and coincidentally had trouble hitting both elementals without also catching party members, leading him to use the "electric balls" on only one). Since the water elementals had no electricity powers of their own, I fail to see how that did anything to make them more powerful.

Shin Okada said:

If the entire battle field is filled with water, that really favors water elemental and thus EL should be adjusted accordingly. I say it worth EL +2 at least. So resulted EL will be party level +4 and that means the party has 50/50 chance to win. So, TPK could be possible.

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I figure you encounter creatures in their preferred settings, so the CR should represent facing a water elemental that's in the water. Out of water, they're pretty pathetic, save for sheer hp and DR. And I left land spaces. Described in detail below, if you care.

[sblock]The battle scenario was partly inspired by Zelda: Windwaker, when the tower's flooding up and you're running up along the spiral staircase as the giant bird monster harasses you. I left a 5 ft wide ledge along the perimeter of the tower wall just above the water level so there would be standing room, as well as being able to access the escape ladder from there. Furthermore, if a PC had gotten pulled to the bottom by one of the elementals, the entranceway they originally came into the tower from was too small for the elementals to follow through easily, and I made sure to have a higher point shortly before said entrance that a PC throw to the bottom could swim to to get out of the water to safety. The PCs should have been aware of it, as I made them make climb checks to get down it before entering the room. I was keenly aware of the dangers of a PC getting swept up and trapped by whirlpools or drowning, and made sure to put in safety features. For its part, the room was part of the villain's set up, and this particular villain (inspired by yet another game, Booster from Super Mario RPG) was almost childlike and just wanted to "play" with the party as they climbed up his tower. So, after fighting and losing badly, the party figured out to get out of there (and struggled to rescue the two PCs still trapped in the water), if they had to actually fight it, even with the dry points to stand on, it'd have been an amazing TPK.[/sblock]

StreamOfTheSky said:

I figure you encounter creatures in their preferred settings, so the CR should represent facing a water elemental that's in the water. Out of water, they're pretty pathetic, save for sheer hp and DR. And I left land spaces. Described in detail below, if you care.

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You are right that monsters should be living in favored environment. But having such environment in an unexpected place really makes a monster stronger, as PCs cannot prepare for that environment beforehand.

For example, if PCs are going to an entirely submerged dungeon, swamp area, or ocean aboard a ship, they should prepare ways to breath water, swim freely, fly, etc.-beforehand.

But if they are adventuring in a dungeon or tower and suddenly find the next room is filled with water, that is hard for them to deal with that environment.

StreamOfTheSky said:

I figure you encounter creatures in their preferred settings, so the CR should represent facing a water elemental that's in the water.

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Sure, but you still need to account for the trap (as you called it) in the Encounter Level. The EL does not increase the Challenge Rating of the elementals, however. If it was a CR7 trap, then the EL was +3, not +2, significantly more deadly with a good chance of PC deaths, if not a TPK.

To the OP, remember that it's not actually 4d8+4 damage. As Frank points out, you need to keep that fire damage separate. If your party has no access to resist/protection from fire or anything else, then really I guess even a mouse is under-CRed against that group.

Thanks for all the responses

I should probably give a little more background - my group are even greener than I am, with four of them not even having PHBs. Resist Energy would probably be considered advanced tactics - I doubt any of them have it as part of their standard load of spells, and I know they don't have potions.

Of the six who were doing that dungeon there was
- an 8th level druid (a friend was filling in for the usual player, she's never done a druid)
- Rogue 7
- Paladin 7 (V inexperienced player)
-Cleric 7 (V inexperienced player)
- Swordsage 6
- Ranger 6 Swordsage 1 (V inexperienced player)

Fortunately they didn't hit the relevant room yesterday, because I think they'd have been torn apart.

So, all the spellcasters are played by inexperienced players. Then, a fight against Fire Elemental could be a good opportunity to learn how to use their spells effectively.

Give them some alerts or information that there will be some kind of fire-based monster in the next room. Say, the door is unnaturally hot, etc. Or, if the fire elemental is not likely to pursuit the PCs further, let them actually fight for a round or two and then suggest players that retreating is often the best tactics.

Then, give them time to read the rule book and think how to deal with that fire monster. Let PCs rest for a night and choose appropriate spells.

Shin Okada said:

So, all the spellcasters are played by inexperienced players. Then, a fight against Fire Elemental could be a good opportunity to learn how to use their spells effectively.

Give them some alerts or information that there will be some kind of fire-based monster in the next room. Say, the door is unnaturally hot, etc. Or, if the fire elemental is not likely to pursuit the PCs further, let them actually fight for a round or two and then suggest players that retreating is often the best tactics.

Then, give them time to read the rule book and think how to deal with that fire monster. Let PCs rest for a night and choose appropriate spells.

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bah! PCs never retreat, it should be within the EL+4 range for ever encounter.

j/k

Shin Okada said:

Even with Spring Attack, a huge elemental cannot go through squares actually occupied by a medium-sized PC.

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Well don't forget the squeezing rules "A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square." and that the elemental has a jump bonus of +16 just from speed and STR.

Yeah. But it will depend on the width and hight of the dungeon corridor/door. And if DM think a Int 6 Fire Elemental is intelligent enough to commit that risky tactical decision.

Kmart Kommando said:

bah! PCs never retreat, it should be within the EL+4 range for ever encounter.

j/k

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If players never retreat even if a DM mention about it, then TPK will happen fairly often. And that is neither the game designer's fault nor the DM's fault. And probably not the author of the adventure's fault, too.