Huge Fire Elemental CR7?

[Old_school_overlord]

Hi folks, fairly new to GMing

was looking at the Huge Fire Elemental, and it looks ridiculous for a CR7 monster - 15ft reach and 7 attacks of opportunitywith a slam at +17 dealing 4d8+4. 136 HP and good saves and immunities too.

As the group has little in the way of spells and ranged attacks, this thing has TPK written all over it.

Anyone have experience with these?

thanks

 

[monboesen]

You're spot on. Without magic that targets the only weakness (will saves) a standard 7th level group is in serious trouble against a huge fire elemental (goes for all elementals actually).

I distinctly remember an encounter with one of these bad boys in a game where the DM was rusty and relied on the CR system. We got our asses kicked and would have been TPK'ed if he hadnt pulled punches.

 

[Shin Okada]

As the group has little in the way of spells and ranged attacks, this thing has TPK written all over it.

When determining CR, the designers are assuming a well-balanced party. If your party is going all for melee or otherrwise lacking some "supposed to have" talents, some monsters may cause TPK even if it's CR is appropriate for your PCs.

Fire Elemental is a non-flying melee monster with only descent AC and obvious weak points (vulnerable to cold, about half or the damages can be prevented by Resist Energy spell). So, in my experience, typical 7th-level 4-men party can kill it without that much problem (thus challenging).

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Don't forget Fire Elementals also have Spring Attack. They are very nasty opponents, and it boggles my mind how some people in other threads have called elementals "weak."

I remember one of our few PC deaths came when a Fighter (stupidly, as the player later admitted) charged one after already being struck for damage earlier on.

I did a battle once with two water elementals (huge) inside a tower that had been filled with water (yay, traps!) I think it was CR of party +2, or slightly lower than that (mixed level party, hard to estimate). I left an escape ladder with a passageway small enough that elementals couldn't follow just in case for a smart party to utilize, and thank the gods I did. CR +2 shouldn't be blatantly deadly, but after just two rounds, half the party was almost dead, and the monsters were hardly damaged. This included using up some high CL scrolls of (energy sub electricity) fireballs the bard had, as I ruled anyone in water recieved a save penalty against it. If not for noticing the easy battle avoidance, the party would have definitely been completely killed off.

 

[frankthedm]

was looking at the Huge Fire Elemental, and it looks ridiculous for a CR7 monster - 15ft reach and 7 attacks of opportunity with a slam at +17 dealing 4d8+4. 136 HP and good saves and immunities too.

As the group has little in the way of spells and ranged attacks, this thing has TPK written all over it.

7 AoO's don't exist unless the party gives it those AoO's. After the 2nd AoO, most semi intelligent parties will not be handing free attacks out to Mr. 4d8+4 & Burn.

On the 4d8+4 & Burn subject, only if the elemental gets surprise does it get to do that damage. Otherwise both casters get to throw down Resist Element(fire)spells or scrolls and non casters chug down their Resist Element(fire) potions. If the party fails to have fire resist available whether castable or consumable, then they deserve to be bent over.

Now, I still think the huge elemental should be a point or two CR higher since the party will have likely have some dead weight.

Unless you are built for ranged attacking, DR 5/- eats a good chunk of your ranged damage output.
Rogue won't have a significant wand to contribute with nor the UMD skill bonus to use it.
Ranger has to suck up that DR 5/- multiple times.
Monk has to suck up that DR 5/- multiple times & has to use a monk weapon or burn.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Don't forget Fire Elementals also have Spring Attack. They are very nasty opponents, and it boggles my mind how some people in other threads have called elementals "weak."

I remember one of our few PC deaths came when a Fighter (stupidly, as the player later admitted) charged one after already being struck for damage earlier on.

I did a battle once with two water elementals (huge) inside a tower that had been filled with water (yay, traps!) I think it was CR of party +2, or slightly lower than that (mixed level party, hard to estimate). I left an escape ladder with a passageway small enough that elementals couldn't follow just in case for a smart party to utilize, and thank the gods I did. CR +2 shouldn't be blatantly deadly, but after just two rounds, half the party was almost dead, and the monsters were hardly damaged. This included using up some high CL scrolls of (energy sub electricity) fireballs the bard had, as I ruled anyone in water recieved a save penalty against it. If not for noticing the easy battle avoidance, the party would have definitely been completely killed off.

Did not houseruling Electricity gets a save bonus (same everyone getting a penalty to save) water make the battle harder?
There is a good chance that it wouldn't have been that bad if you didn't change it.

Plus, you are talking about a flooded room with water elementals. Giving them bonuses makes them tougher.

 

[blargney the second]

Huge elementals are certainly brutes, but I don't their CR is out of whack. By level 7, beater monsters are supposed to hit like a truck!

 

[Shin Okada]

I did a battle once with two water elementals (huge) inside a tower that had been filled with water (yay, traps!) I think it was CR of party +2, or slightly lower than that (mixed level party, hard to estimate).

If the entire battle field is filled with water, that really favors water elemental and thus EL should be adjusted accordingly. I say it worth EL +2 at least. So resulted EL will be party level +4 and that means the party has 50/50 chance to win. So, TPK could be possible.

 

[frankthedm]

Huge elementals are certainly brutes, but I don't their CR is out of whack. By level 7, beater monsters are supposed to hit like a truck!

Yeah, but most beaters don't sideline the rogue so completely. Unbeatable DR & crit immunity is really good at shutting down the rogue. in another few levels the rogue can be reliably UMDing a wand of something semi potent, but around 7th, price is kinda an issue.

 

[blargney the second]

Yeah, but most beaters don't sideline the rogue so completely. Unbeatable DR & crit immunity is really good at shutting down the rogue. in another few levels the rogue can be reliably UMDing a wand of something semi potent, but around 7th, price is kinda an issue.

Serves them right for trying to cheat to get extra damage! They should do it the old-fashioned way, like every good barbarian does.