Predict the Future: How will what we have today EVOLVE INTO 5th Edition?

Oh I think the speculation about 5E has a more basic cause than that!

When someone is thirsty, they look forward to the next drink. Many people find that 4E does not quench their thirst and look forward to the next incarnation in the hope of something better.

I am not sure I agree with the idea that 4E is a complete bust but it certainly has more obvious problems for me than 3.5E did out of the box.
 

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Broadly speaking, looking at such factors as:

1. The Fractured Fanbase we have today

2. Pathfinder's success/failure and how it affects the fanbase who didn't go with 4e

3. The Bleak Economic Outlook

4. 3pp's, and which ones are going with 4e versus Pathfinder/3.5/OGL versus those who choose to develop for any or all systems using copyright fair use protection

5. The PDF market vs. print.

6. Illegal downloads of PDF's, taking into account the economy and ability of people to buy legitimately to support their hobby.

7. DDI's success or failure, resulting in moving the game to an online environment or not

8. How that success or failure of DDI affects the bottom line at WOTC, which in turn affects their future development, balancing the bottom line vs. fanbase desires.

9. Th evolution of 4e, including but not limited to:

a. Miniatures-focused RPG gameplay, and it's acceptance/rejection

b. Evolution of powers, dailies, etc and cards used for them during gameplay

c. Some sort of potential merging/morphing of powers/dailies cards, miniatures, and some Magic type card game into DnD, making DnD some weird hybrid of MTG, DDI, and DDM with some RP icing thrown on top of it.

d. Adoption and develpment for 4e by 3pp's, which takes into account the GSL's eventual development and attractiveness to 3pp's.

10. MMORPG's

11. 4e's ability to attract new younger gamers over the next few years.

12. 3pp's overall success, including but not limited to:

a. Some going out of business

b. New ones springing up

c. Potential merger some of some 3pp's

13. Anything else I missed.
I think it's telling how there's a distinctly negative bent to most of the factors you've suggested; most of them appear to be either assuming the commerical failure of 4E or that 5E will take some format entirely different from the traditional table-top roleplaying game. (The "5E = D&D + M:tG" suggestion, for example.)

What about the innovations of 4E, both mechanical and in termsof design philosophy? I think these will have the greatest influence upon 5E, and I don't believe 5E will necessarily be any more an electronic/online than 4E is it just might have even more improved access to electronic media as gameplay tools.

Just had a funny thought. Pathfinder does well. 4e does ok, but not enough to satisfy Hasbro. WOTC licenses the Dungeons and Dragons name to Paizo. Paizo prints up thousands of stickers saying Dungeons and Dragons and slaps them on their book covers, right above the name Pathfinder. Instantly thousands of followers mindlessly love Pathfinder because it's now officially sanctified as the Dungeons and Dragons Core Ruleset. :)
I find this less "funny" and more "nightmarish". I also take offense to the suggestion that gamers tend to "mindlessly love [a game] because it's... officially sanctioned as the Dungeons and Dragons Core Ruleset." It's a very thinly veiled shot at those who love the current D&D Core Ruleset. :mad:
 

Back on topic;

I can't separate the question of "what will D&D become?" from the question "what is the core strength of the game?"

For me D&D has always been the "generic" fantasy RPG. It is the vanilla canvas that we can use to adjudicate any game we could recognise as "fantasy" and make it work. It is also class based, with a set of core classes and it has a core mechanic of d20 roll high and AC, HP etc.

If we look at the above statement, which most people would probably agree with, then 4E has a serious problem; it is NOT a generic Fantasy RPG anymore.

4E has made a huge mistake IMHO going all "Exalted" with powers without any backstory to explain them. Are we normal humans or not? If we are then how do we heal completely with an extended rest? If we have these powers then why or how do we have them and how did we get them and why does no-one else from our race have them?

4E completely fails to address these questions, probably because the designers wanted to keep D&D generic and not force people into a specific answer to these questions; except that by introducing powers, they already did away with generic D&D and just failed to give us any backstory for it. So to me 4E is like a kind of compromise that doesn't really go far enough or else goes too far.

Since D&D has always been the generic RPG I think 5E ultimately will return to its generic roots because that is what defines this game for most people; if I want to play superhuman characters I play Exalted, if I want to play in a grim gritty world I play Warhammer FRP. I come to D&D because I want a vanilla canvas that I can use to make MY games played MY way come to life.

The reason we are having the 3E/4E and now 5E debate is because D&D no longer supports many people's playstyle. This is because it is less generic and this is essentially because of how "powers" have been implemented. The mechanic is interesting, but is ultimately incompatible with a generic fantasy RPG and with how many people use/used the rules.

Just my 2 pennysworth
 

I find this less "funny" and more "nightmarish". I also take offense to the suggestion that gamers tend to "mindlessly love [a game] because it's... officially sanctioned as the Dungeons and Dragons Core Ruleset." It's a very thinly veiled shot at those who love the current D&D Core Ruleset. :mad:

Agreed ... though we've seen enough of these thrusts (intentional or not) to avoid getting irate about them.

~Just another Mindless Follower Goes Back to Play a Game He Loves
 

Back on topic;

I can't separate the question of "what will D&D become?" from the question "what is the core strength of the game?"

For me D&D has always been the "generic" fantasy RPG. It is the vanilla canvas that we can use to adjudicate any game we could recognise as "fantasy" and make it work. It is also class based, with a set of core classes and it has a core mechanic of d20 roll high and AC, HP etc.

If we look at the above statement, which most people would probably agree with, then 4E has a serious problem; it is NOT a generic Fantasy RPG anymore.

4E has made a huge mistake IMHO going all "Exalted" with powers without any backstory to explain them. Are we normal humans or not? If we are then how do we heal completely with an extended rest? If we have these powers then why or how do we have them and how did we get them and why does no-one else from our race have them?

4E completely fails to address these questions, probably because the designers wanted to keep D&D generic and not force people into a specific answer to these questions; except that by introducing powers, they already did away with generic D&D and just failed to give us any backstory for it. So to me 4E is like a kind of compromise that doesn't really go far enough or else goes too far.

Since D&D has always been the generic RPG I think 5E ultimately will return to its generic roots because that is what defines this game for most people; if I want to play superhuman characters I play Exalted, if I want to play in a grim gritty world I play Warhammer FRP. I come to D&D because I want a vanilla canvas that I can use to make MY games played MY way come to life.

The reason we are having the 3E/4E and now 5E debate is because D&D no longer supports many people's playstyle. This is because it is less generic and this is essentially because of how "powers" have been implemented. The mechanic is interesting, but is ultimately incompatible with a generic fantasy RPG and with how many people use/used the rules.

Just my 2 pennysworth

I think you are dead wrong here. I would argue that things like the LotR movies, video games including Final Fantasy, and anime have changed what generic fantasy means to the collective consciousness. 4E is just keeping up with the times, and some older D&D players are stuck in the past. D&D is the generic fantasy of 2008.
 


For me D&D has always been the "generic" fantasy RPG. It is the vanilla canvas that we can use to adjudicate any game we could recognize as "fantasy" and make it work. It is also class based, with a set of core classes and it has a core mechanic of d20 roll high and AC, HP etc.

YMMV, of course, but I think you're wrong.

D&D has never been "generic" unless by you mean generic you mean "a giant heap of cliches for people to pick through and find the ones that suit them."

The d20 SYSTEM is fairly generic and can accommodate a variety of games, but D&D is distinctly D&D flavored. There are lots of D&Disms we all take for granted; alignment, spell-wielding clergy, vancian/daily spell prep. These things make it great for making kitchen sink fantasy, but poor for specific fantasy. Put another way; D&D is a great system to have halflings in, but not a good system to use for The Hobbit.

Granted, DMs have been picking the choice bits out of the rules and ignoring the rest for time-out-of-mind, but that doesn't make it a generic system, just one that takes well to kitbashing.

Compared to TRUE generic systems (GURPS, True d20) D&D's flavor-modifications become glaringly obvious.
 

I think we will see some improvements in the rules (they will become even more linear, perhaps especially regarding worldbuilding and the relations of PCs to world), some important extra features for the virtual game table and some changes in fluff.
 

Back on topic;

I can't separate the question of "what will D&D become?" from the question "what is the core strength of the game?"

For me D&D has always been the "generic" fantasy RPG. It is the vanilla canvas that we can use to adjudicate any game we could recognise as "fantasy" and make it work. It is also class based, with a set of core classes and it has a core mechanic of d20 roll high and AC, HP etc.

If we look at the above statement, which most people would probably agree with, then 4E has a serious problem; it is NOT a generic Fantasy RPG anymore.

4E has made a huge mistake IMHO going all "Exalted" with powers without any backstory to explain them. Are we normal humans or not? If we are then how do we heal completely with an extended rest? If we have these powers then why or how do we have them and how did we get them and why does no-one else from our race have them?

4E completely fails to address these questions, probably because the designers wanted to keep D&D generic and not force people into a specific answer to these questions; except that by introducing powers, they already did away with generic D&D and just failed to give us any backstory for it. So to me 4E is like a kind of compromise that doesn't really go far enough or else goes too far.

Since D&D has always been the generic RPG I think 5E ultimately will return to its generic roots because that is what defines this game for most people; if I want to play superhuman characters I play Exalted, if I want to play in a grim gritty world I play Warhammer FRP. I come to D&D because I want a vanilla canvas that I can use to make MY games played MY way come to life.

The reason we are having the 3E/4E and now 5E debate is because D&D no longer supports many people's playstyle. This is because it is less generic and this is essentially because of how "powers" have been implemented. The mechanic is interesting, but is ultimately incompatible with a generic fantasy RPG and with how many people use/used the rules.

Just my 2 pennysworth
I think you're pretty much as wrong as can be, here, with all respect.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the power system of 4E makes D&D and less "generic". It doesn't.

I'm also not sure where you got the idea that 4E is an Exalted-style game. It's not.

D&D is, and has always been, about heroic characters. The PCs are normal people, in the sense that they aren't necessarily born into a deity-driven destiny, but they're heroes. They aren't necessarily unique, but they are stand-outs. They don't need a special back story to explain each power, just like previous editions of D&D didn't need a back story to explain Wizards adding new spells to their arsenal after reaching a new level. The powers can all be re-flavored to whatever you want if for some reason you don't think there's enough back story to justify their existence.

Are you taking the word "power" literally? These aren't supernatural abilities, necessarily. A rogue's Sly Flourish is just a special technique that he picked up. A Warlord's Inspiring Word is simply his ability to hearten his allies with a rousing cry. An extended rest heals completely because in D&D you aren't assumed to take serious wounds. You either take your punches heroically and suffer superficial injuries that you're able to shrug off after a short while, or you're done in by a particularly devastating attack (and, as a side note, taking multiple days to heal up wasn't any fun anyway). Some other people from your race have these powers - the other heroic adventurers or dark villains. Most people aren't adventurers or villains, though.

D&D was never as "vanilla" as you imply. Powers are simply a natural extension of the spellcasting mechanic to other classes: fun, unique abilities that provide tactically interesting options during combat - options that expand with experience.

D&D now supports just as many peoples' playstyles as previous editions have. The idea that somehow a major shift in philosophy was made that alienated half the gaming population is a myth. There are, and always will be, a minority of people who, for whatever reason, don't like the current edition. There will also always be a group of people who didn't like the last edition but enjoy the new one. And above all, even if there were a mythical gamer schism, it would not be caused by the lack of "generic-ness" you perceive in 4th Edition.

Just my two cents.

Now, as to the topic of this thread, I think we're going to see a smooth, natural evolution of the hobby. Nothing as extreme as the death of face-to-face tabletop gaming or online components, but a continued progression of both. The online medium will continue to be explored as a tool for facilitating gaming. Mechanically, the class system will remain, powers will make an appearance, and we will not see a return to the caster-dominated system of D&D past. Rules will remain tight, and I expect that the novel idea of skill challenges will be worked on heavily in order to make it better.

All in all, I expect 5th Edition to be an incrementally smaller change from 4E than 4E was from 3.5E.
 

Are you taking the word "power" literally? These aren't supernatural abilities, necessarily. A rogue's Sly Flourish is just a special technique that he picked up. A Warlord's Inspiring Word is simply his ability to hearten his allies with a rousing cry. An extended rest heals completely because in D&D you aren't assumed to take serious wounds. You either take your punches heroically and suffer superficial injuries that you're able to shrug off after a short while, or you're done in by a particularly devastating attack (and, as a side note, taking multiple days to heal up wasn't any fun anyway). Some other people from your race have these powers - the other heroic adventurers or dark villains. Most people aren't adventurers or villains, though.

I find it impossible to believe a power that one can decide to pull whenever he wishes while in combat something but a super power. OTOH I find much more believable the recharge mechanic.
 

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