What makes an TTRPG a "Narrative Game" (Apocalypse World Discussion)

[Emberashh]

The seven steps of arrow crafting sounds kind-of cool. Like a descriptor for a HeroWars/Quest PC, that gets used as an augment for an epic bow shot.

But maybe that's not what you had in mind?

Perhaps unwise on my part to invite myself to talk to you again, so lets agree upfront not to argue. I'll answer questions but I'm just not going to engage any disagreements. I think we know how each other think at this point.

The reason I did this though is just to note they are being snarky about a post I recently made, right over here. I do enjoy that you like the idea of it, even if the implementation may not get the same reception.

It is cool. But in terms of how I'm using it and how that relates to a thematic premise, context becomes important. I'm writing story and lore into every single game mechanic. Thats best exemplified by how I wrote my take on races, which you can see an example of below, with what I lovingly call my Varangian Pigeon Swedish Chef people and my Maritimey Pirate Bears.

Pidgin

The Pidgin hail from the deep south, in the continent of Fjalland, who named that land. The Pidgin are the fiercest warriors the world has ever known, and it has been thought that it is nothing short of lucky that they seem to prefer their homeland over all others. The Pidgin are said to be so fierce in battle that even a small guard of 50 have been observed to hold off thousands on their own, and so famed is their battle prowess that even the lowliest of Pidgin can find employment amongst the personal guards of monarchs, nobleman, and other rich folk alike. Indeed, legend has it that the first Terran King, Ulfire, directly commanded a regiment of 1000 in the last battle before he fell, and the legend says that the Pidgin were so distraught at the loss of their patron, that every single one, who had not fallen mind you, flew into the sky, never to be seen again.
The Pidgin are a bird-like, flying people, many sporting large wings nearly twice their own heights, which range anywhere from 5-6ft tall. Of note is that most Pidgins are exceptionally...large in a manner of speaking; so much so that to call a Pidgin a “fat bird” is often seen as slur. That is not the only interesting fact about the Pidgin, however, given that the Pidgin language is rather startling to hear for the first time, considering it consists mostly of a series of clucks, borks, and various fake-sounding words that all end it “-ipity”. While a Pidgin in isolation may be amusing to observe, it is unwise to provoke one into a fight, even if you are a skilled warrior yourself; even a Pidgin whose never seen a sword can still drag you into the sky...


Class Abilities
All Pidgin automatically gain Natural Flight, with a Minimum Flight Speed of 30. Additionally, as Pidgin prefer to fly above all else, it will cost zero Composure to take off from any surface or altitude.

Martials
Skyborn: Pidgin Martials are famous across the world as an aerial cavalry, for they eat little, require no riders, and can be outfitted like any other soldier. All Pidgin Martials gain the unique ability to make use of Wing Armor without dampening their Flight Speed, and in Warfare, Pidgin Units, if lead by a Pidgin anyway, are capable of making extremely powerful Coordinated Dive attacks as, with all of the same benefits as Dives provide in typical combat.

Mages
Sonic Boom: While Pidgin Martials are more famous, Pidgin Mages are no less potent on the battlefield, and specialize in the Element of Air. Anytime a Pidgin Mage utilizes an Air Spell, they may treat it as though it is also a Sound Spell, benefiting from any weaknesses their target may have to it, as well as any buffs, enchantments, or potions to Sound Magic. In addition, they gain the ability Sonic Boom, which allows them to create a sonic boom with their wings when they land or take off; the boom will deal 1d8 Sound damage to all enemy targets in the Pidgin's position when this happens, and the boom will deal 2d8 damage when reaching at least +15 Conditioning.

Summoners
Celestial Beacons: Pidgin Summoners often show up as Battlemages, for obvious reasons, but it is not unheard of for a Pidgin to take up Conjuring, particularly as Harbingers of Conduit, allowing them to channel their People's reverence for the Stars into the hordes they command. All Summons conjured by a Pidgin Summoner will gain the Celestial Beacon property, which allows them to, at their will, shine with a brilliant Chatoyant Light, providing all effects and benefits of that type of light within any Position that they occupy on the Combat Grid. Outside of Combat, this ability will grant Chatoyant light in a radius equal to the units current Composure, in feet. This ability will last until the summons are destroyed or dispelled.

Mystics
Cloudwalker: A Pidgin pastime, as can be guessed given they can fly, is to simply find a strong air current, and simply soar there; for a Pidgin this allows them to feel almost weightless, and to observers sometimes a Pidgin can seem to almost fade from the world when they do this, as though they were another cloud. All Pidgin Mystics will gain 1 Use of the Cloudwalker Ability when they meditate for at least 10 minutes, and will gain two uses if they do so while flying at least 500ft in Altitude; the Pidgin will only be able to retain a maximum of 4 Uses of this ability, but will gain 8 possible uses when they hit at least +25 Meditation. The Cloudwalker ability allows the Pidgin Mystic to become ethereal for 1 Minute, or the duration of a Combat Round, allowing all objects and magic to pass completely through them, and allowing them to walk through any solid objects in turn. Note, however, that the Pidgin that does this can still be attacked by enemy Mystics, and in turn, will suffer great harm if they linger too long in solid objects...

Nature
Predator's Eye: Over time, Pidgin society has become highly metropolitan, with the hanging city of Curlba-na being among the largest in the world, but it was not always like this, and many rural Pidgin still try to follow the old ways, preferring the Hunt to farming, and living amongst nature rather than encassed in stone. All Nature Pidgin will possess an uncannily well developed eyesight, able to see and identify anything up to 1 mile past the horizon, even in the darkest of nights, without any Perception Checks. However, with a successful Perception Check against the Environment Rating of the Region, they can potentially see and identify targets and locations up to 6 Miles away, over twice the distance of the Horizon, but at these distances will still be bound by the Perception Check as to whether or not they successfully see and/or identify anything.

Divine
Wings of Divinity: Pidgin revere the skies above, and as a flying people even in the worst of conditions, they are only a short “walk” from being back under their glow. All Divine Pidgin will have the ability to spend their Conviction to restore themselves to Natural Flight if they have begun to fall, and in addition, gain the Wings of Divinity ability, which costs 1 Conviction. This ability allows them to bless their Wings with holy light, emitting a personal amount of Chatoyant light (meaning only they will benefit from it), but also granting them 2d6 to roll whenever they wish to Guard with their Wings or conjure a Ward, and they will add the result to the Defense total. This will grow to 2d12 if they spend 4 Conviction.

Cultures

Broad-Wing
The Broad-Wing have the misfortune of being the reason Pidgin consider a certain phrase a slur, for the Broad-Wing are uniformly robust in size and stature. But do not mistake their shape for laziness or indulgence; that 12ft girth of their necks is all muscle. The Broad-Wing tend to be the most highly desired Pidgin as Mercenaries, as their imposing size makes them formidable even if their job is simply to stand still. But the Broad-Wing are not all just muscles and war-making, for the Broad-Wing are also the staple workers of Pidgin society, working anywhere from the fields to kitchens, to the various artisan shops one might find in their cities. Indeed, Broad-Wing cuisine in particular is known to be so tasty that even non-Pidgins have taken up recipes and techniques, and for good reason. Wild root vegetables and greens with fresh game is a no-brainer in any culture, and the Broad-Wing technique for infusing the game with fermented garlic is a favorite amongst Pidgin and Travelers alike.

Unwavering Diligence: The Broad-Wing make a point of Loyalty, and see hard work as simply work, and work as nothing at all. In Combat, Broad-Wing provide an imposing and unwavering presence, and may roll 1d6 (1d10 with +25 Intimidation) when attempting to Intimidate an enemy, adding the result to their result, and will be able to make such attempts for free if they do so in the process of Guarding themselves or an Ally. In addition, when engaging in any Gathering Travel Task, by themselves or in tandem with a friend, they may re-roll any 1s they or their friend happen to roll at any stage of the process.

Long-Neck
The Long-Necks are relatively young in Pidgin society, only emerging when the first Pidgin cities began to be built in the Floating Mountains and the concept of being “inside” all day became a thing for Pidgins. Typically the most compact of Pidgins, they uniquely sport unusually long necks, hence their name, which is attributed to the nature of scholarly pursuits that these Pidgin engage in for much of their lives. While the Long-Neck are generally more frail and, to those not used them, even emaciated looking compared to the typical Broad-Wing or Swift-Claw, the Long-Neck are typically the longest lived of the Pidgin, and with the emergence of Magic, many have become adept at its usage.

Scholarly Longevity: Long-Neck Pidgin are universally well educated, and have become adept in particular at the creation of magical weapons and objects. When utilizing Sigilism or Enchantment to create or enchant a magical weapon, object, or piece of clothing, they may choose one Material to utilize twice.

Swift Claw
In Pidgin history, it is said that the Swift-Claw culture nearly lost their ability to fly completely, for the Swift-Claw universally prefer to stick to the ground much of the time. Fortunately, as Pidgin society began to develop and the cultures became more cosmopolitan with one another, the Swift-Claw still maintain their flight, despite still preferring to stick to the ground. While Swift-Claw Pidgin aren't nearly as formidable force in the air as the Broad-Wing, they have proven to make for excellent trackers and bounty hunters, and at sea Swift-Claw Pidgin have even been known to join up with Ursh and Dwarvish sailing crews, and there is at least one known Pirate Captain who was said to be a Swift-Claw. Given their preference to stay grounded, Swift-Claw Pidgin are often praised for the fine textiles and paper goods they can produce, enabled by their much more refined capabilities with their makeshift hands, and the bows and arrows of the Swift-Claw are said to be the finest in the world.

Artisan's Bounty: Many Swift-Claw make their wages through bounty hunting and trophy hunting, and it is said the only recompense a would-be target has if a Swift-Claw is after them is to be ready to kill, or ready to make amends, for there is no escape. All Swift-Claw have an uncanny knack for Tracking targets and Units, particularly in open plains or city environments, and will be able to predict with near perfect accuracy where their quarry is going, provided they have successfully picked up their Track, and the target has not managed to cut off or otherwise cover up their own Track, either by magic or slow, careful Pathfinding. Additionally, Swift-Claw are able to tune and tweak the Bow's and Arrows that they create to maximize their accuracy at long ranges, increasing them over 30ft on average, or 15ft per Bow or Arrow; at +25 Smithing, this grows to +30ft per bow or arrow that they create granting the archer who wields these weapons an impressive 60ft of range over their bows standard range.

Ursh The Ursh are a...crude people. While the Ursh have co-existed with Pidgins in Fjalland since ancient times, they critically lack a naturally growing opposable thumb; despite their large paws being heavily clawed and back by their powerful form, and generally being as intelligent as any other, Ursh were fundamentally limited compared to the Pidgins and other Peoples, for even the Pidgins, who lack hands in the conventional sense, have the full use of their wing tips to serve the same purpose as we see in other Peoples. But the Ursh do not, only having a small nub where a thumb might grow, but simply doesn't. However, some centuries ago, the Ursh managed to begin wearing strange, mechanical thumbs, which granted them the full use of their hands for things other than mauling and climbing (which they excel at, even with the thumb devices). It is unknown which Ursh invented these devices, or how they got introduced to the Ursh cultures, but nevertheless, the Ursh quickly took advantage of their fortune, and rose to become a significant force in their homeland and across the seas.
The Ursh are a large People who have been observed to walk both bipedally and on all four limbs, and as a result of their powerful claws on their four paws they are unmatched climbers and a truly terrifying thing to face in hand to hand combat. When standing upright, Ursh typically stand anywhere from 6ft to 8ft tall, and are mostly covered in a thick, soft fur that ranges in color from a light brown to a deep, pure black, though some have been found to have bright, multi-colored patterns in their fur, and others still have been seen to be almost pure white. Each Ursh also sports their mechanical thumb apparatus, which is typically made of metal, but can often be made of wood if the Ursh is poor or does not prefer to wear metal.

Class Abilities
All Ursh, if they are incapacitated or killed, may have their mechanical thumbs removed by an enemy, but they will not be able to be dislodged from the Ursh unless specifically targeted by an enemy and destroyed. Ursh who lose their thumbs by any means will be incapable of performing any tasks that require them, including holding weapons, but will still be able to utilize their Claws. Ursh Claws are deadly, and only get deadlier as the Ursh learns to fight. Unlike other People, when fighting hand to hand, Ursh may roll 2d6 with their Claws, and they will deal Blunt/Slashing Damage. Every +5 in Wrestling that the Ursh earns will increase the size of these dice by 1, up to a maximum of 2d12 at +15 Wrestling. They are eligible at any time to utilize any die size they have unlocked, including d4s if they wish, when fighting with their Claws.
Additionally, Ursh are natural Climbers, and as such will be able to freely Climb as part of their Movement, with no effort required. However, they may also still attempt a Conditioning Check to gain extra Climbing Speed, if they wish, and they must roll at least 15 total to gain an additional 10ft of Movement. At +25 Conditioning, this will increase to 20ft.

Martials
Savage Fighter: All Ursh are capable of an intense ferocity in combat, but Martial Ursh above all excel when in their natural state; bare of armor or weapon, with only their brute strength behind them, making them an imposing force on the decks of ships and in arenas where equipment is sparse to begin with. When wearing no Armor, Martial Ursh may consider up to ½ of their Conditioning Skill as Blunt Damage Resistance, increasing to their full Skill at +25 Conditioning. Additionally, if they have been reduced to 20 Composure, or ¼ of their max Composure, they will gain the same resistance value to all Physical Damage.

Mages
Wicked Claws: A proper Ursh Mage is a truly rare sight, with most Ursh, if they know any magic at all, only preferring simplistic spells that help in their day to day lives, but for some, Magic is as much a part of their natural ferocity as their strength is. All Ursh Mages will excel with Touch-based Spells in Combat, and when using such spells will be able to make use of their Claws for some truly devastating magic; the Ursh Mage may consider their Touch-based spells to deal Blunt/Slashing Damage, in addition to whatever damage it does normally (and they may split the damage between the two as they see fit), and they may also choose to inflict the Laceration Wound with these touch Spells, and the die size will key off of the maximum die size for the Ursh's Claws.

Summoners
Ethereal Pack: While the Ursh are famous for their crude culture and general brutishness, they are fiercely family oriented, and an Ursh family as a unit can be a devastating military force unto itself, even if the family is entirely conjured. Ursh Summoners gain more use out of their Summons; in Combat, if a Summoned Unit is at full Composure, any Defense that they roll may be doubled when it is in defense of the Ursh. Outside of Combat, the Summons may be utilized as a force multiplier when moving objects, increasing the size of objects or creatures that the Ursh can grapple and lift by 2, and at any time may also have their current Composure applied to instead increase how far the grappled object or creature can be Tossed.

Mystics
Sleeping Giants: Not all Ursh lack a general calmness, and especially amongst the Oldforthers, some Ursh can be found to display and extraordinary amount of calm and patience, no doubt tuned by their close relationship with their natural, ancestral environments; but be wary, to provoke such an Ursh will be likely to mean your doom, for a calm Ursh is a much more formidable foe than one who wastes all their energy being brutish when they don't need to. All Mystic Ursh may, once a day, roll their full set of Discipline Dice, and may keep up to half of them. At any time, in our out of Combat, they may use up all of these Discipline dice and their results to supplement a new Discipline Roll that they make. If they have used these dice already, they may, once a day, Meditate for at least 1 hour, to gain another set, but will have to wait until Dawn the next day to be able to start fresh.

Nature
Urshish Medicine: Though it may seem hard to believe, many Ursh are skilled herbalists, and have an uncanny knack for the making of Poultices and Salves. Nature Ursh may add one additional Mark to Survival, and any Nature Ursh that creates either a Poultice or a Salve may add up to ½ of their Herbalism Skill to their Crafting Budget for these items, increasing to their full Herbalism Skill when they have reached at least a combined total of +40 between Survival and Herbalism.

Divine
Soothing Rage: It is not known that the Ursh follow any gods or religion that we know of, but it is not uncommon to find adventuring Ursh falling into the faiths of the Elves or the Terrans, and the faithful find that their animalistic nature is especially potent under the patronage of their gods. All Divine Ursh gain the ability Soothing Rage, which costs a minimum 1 Conviction to evoke. Soothing Rage will make the Ursh much more deadly in Combat, and easier to Heal, but also very vulnerable to continued damage. Soothing Rage when active will last 1 full Combat Round per every Conviction that they spent, and while active, they will see their Critical Hit Range reduced to 15 or higher, and any healing spells or potions that they receive will be worth double. However, they will also have all damage they take doubled, before any reductions from their armor, abilities, or buffs.

Cultures

Calamity Coast
Some say the most wretched and scum filled places are off in some desert, but the truth is, you haven't seen a true cess pit until you've faced the sweltering humidity of the Calamity Coast. So named for the reefs that surround the region, that have sunk ships from all Peoples in even the calmest weather, the Calamity Coast is home to the seafaring folk of the Ursh, and to virtually every Pirate that has ever sailed the oceans. While the Ursh of Calamity often try to make an honest way of things, signing on to merchant ships and privateers, many tend to turn to Piracy, and there is seldom a pirate brig or sloop that is without at least one Ursh among the crew. Despite this rough and tumble culture, the Calamity have a healthy maritime culture, and Ursh fisheries (when they aren't being pillaged by Oldforther salmon poachers) produce some of the best fish you can find. Indeed, while the average Ursh tavern is a place where you'll see blood on the floor before noon, and in the drain by night, the fresh brightness of their seafood is incredible, and worth the visit, if you can hang with other patons.

Quick Riggers: Calamity Ursh are practically born aboard, and no doubt encouraged by the maintenance of their thumbs, sailors out of Calamity are quick at getting vessels underway, whether they're just pushing off from shore or half-sunk from battle, and they can cook you a great supper in no time too. Any Calamity Ursh that is a part of a sailing crew will be able to contribute up to ½ of their Combat Roll, multiplied b 10, to the vessels overall Speed, and will be able to make any vessel ready to sail in under an hour if it hasn't been damaged, even if they are the sole member of the crew; if the ship has been damaged, they will instead be able to contribute up to ½ of their Construction Skill to all repair rolls made by the rest of the crew. In addition, if they are cooking food and the meal involves any Fish or Seafood as the primary ingredient, they will cook the meal in half the usual time.

Sunk Coats
The Sunk Coats, or simply Sunk as the Calamity call them, inhabit a region in the northwest of Fjalland, which is rich in deep coves and underwater caves. Here, the Sunk culture sprang up around peal diving and the farming of clams, oysters, and other such creatures. It is rare to see the Sunk outside of their homeland, but they can often fetch high paying employment, even far to the inland of other continents, due to their uncanny skill at Diving, and are often found aboard sailing vessels as professional Divers. No doubt due to a lifetime in the water, the Sunk are so natural underwater that its often thought that eventually they'd spontaneously grow gills and simply never come back up from the sea. On the whole, though, the Sunk are a far more calmer bunch than the Calamity Ursh, but are still going to be a fair sight rougher than what many may be used to.

Depth Dwellers: Sunk Ursh excel in underwater exploration and even combat, and have developed keen adaptations that allow for this. Any Sunk Ursh will gain an automatic resistance to Frost Damage, reducing any incoming damage of that type by ½ of their Conditioning Skill, increasing to their full Skill at +25 Conditioning. Additionally, they will be able to re-roll anything less than 3 when they occupy a Position with at least Shallows Depth water; increasing to less than 5 if they have gone to the Depths in the water. Out of Combat, they will grant ½ of their Pathfinding Skill to the Party's Pacing if they are traveling underwater, increasing to the full Skill at +25 Pathfinding.

Oldforthers
The Oldforthers are the Ursh who never took to becoming ocean-going folk, preferring to instead stay in their ancestral forests that form the inland of Fjalland before you reach the mountains. While these Ursh are generally peaceful with their cousins, salmon poaching in recent years has become a prevalent problem, as while coastal Ursh can always rely on the ocean for food, the Salmon that swim down from the mountain are still a coveted delicacy, and occasionally what is typically thousands of salmon a year dwindle to may be a few hundreds, having been taken by the Oldforthers. Despite the conflicts that often erupt from this, the Oldforthers have managed to exploit a functioning economy out of this poaching, as they are able to sell the salmon back to their cousins rather than letting them harvest it themselves further downriver.
Many Oldforthers typically prefer to go without their thumbs, though expediency often means they always have them, and many an adventuring Oldforther will sport an impressive array of battle scars, no doubt because they prefer to go without armor as well. As an interesting side note, many other Peoples have intuited that the name “Oldforther” might be an accent problem, and what these Ursh are called is actually “Old Fathers”, but that is, according to any Ursh you ask, not true. Now, they won't tell you what it actually means, so do with that what you will.

Primal Speed: Oldforthers, having spent most if not all of their lives on land or in relatively shallow rivers, have much more well developed leg muscles than their coastal cousins, and as such can move with a ferocious speed. Indeed, a charge by Oldforther infantry has been observed to clear a mile in less than 30 seconds, though often that effort can exhaust them if relied on too much. Even so, an Oldforther makes for a prime marathoner. All Oldforther Ursh gain a bonus to their Movement equal to their current Composure every Combat Round, but must expend 10 Composure in order to utilize it; this reduces to 5 Composure at +25 Endurance.

Naturally, mechanically theres a lot here that might not have immediate significance if you haven't learned my game, but that's nothing to worry about for what we're talking about here.

If you read these, you should find that there's a substantial and singular vision unifying all of this worldbuilding thats interlaced with how players choose to express who their characters are and where they come from. And if one reads carefully, they should notice too a lot of different story threads that not just those who pick from these could pull on, but so could anyone.

But more than that, is the thematic core that players get to choose when their choice in a People interacts with their choice of Class, because Classes (of which I won't share an example because the few I "completed" are in desperate need of being entirely rewritren now that they're like, multiple versions of the game behind) are written in the exact same way, interlaced with lore, but also with a clear thematic guide into the story of that Class.

When you are a Broad-Wing Knight, you're not just a big viking bird that sounds like the Swedish Chef. You are a part of a rich and storied People, and a Culture within them thats famous the world over not just for being scary as hell but also for their wonderful cuisine, praised the world over for its use of wild greens.

And as a Knight, you aren't just a dork in steel, but a person of honor and Chivalry. Skilled at the arts of War and finer points of high society, and a Warrior of uncanny skill with a blade, a Knight is about becoming yet another who would find eternal glory on the battlefield, if not in song or legend, then surely in a glorious death.

All of that story is given to you as a baseline to work with to explore your own, unique journey. And all of it is reflected mechanically. As a Martial you can don your wings in armor, and can move with your normal speed, reflecting exactly why the Broad-Wing are so damn scary. And as Broad-Wing, you get to use that imposing presence as a great boost in social scenarios, which blends immaculately well with the choice to play a Knight (or one of the Barbarians, Bards, or Rogues).

And apropos, your Peoples propensity for foraging for greens doesn't come to you as a piddly boost to just that, but as a fantastic tool to help your friends find anything they go looking for.

This is all why I loved Dungeon Worlds original idea for Racial Class abilities, and why I scaled it up so every People has something very appropriate for every kind of Class. All of these things blend a rich lore with deep gameplay elements to, ultimately, help to immerse you into the world, so that when you want to explore a story, you're not just conjuring up plots.

You're already a part of the world, and tied to so many things that could be happening, all you need to do is just play, and you'll come out the other end with a story to tell. And if you push a little bit more? All the better.

Crafting on its own can, in fact, be an impetus for story and character motivation. Tolkien, the great inspiration to us all, laces Middle Earth with things like that, and nobody would dare to say that the story of the Silmarills, of the Arkenstone, or the significance of mining for Mithril, or something as innocuous, if wondrous, as Lambas were all pointless trivialities.

In a book, focusing on how these things came to be doesn't work as that would seldom be appealing. But the key is that we are playing games, and so "doing" matters, not necessarily just telling. So while one might prefer something less robust than my take, Crafting that is just telling I don't think cuts it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Then why do people worry so much about baby goblins? According to your analysis of the play, they should be nothing more than tiny little blobs of XP.

Well, this leads indirectly to another significant point, transparency. 'Lawful Good' is such an entirely artificial and abstract construct that it cannot reliably be mapped to any particular in-game behavior. I'm pretty sure the thread @pemerton linked to above makes this point, though I didn't go reread it. Thus play isn't PRINCIPLED at all in practice, it is in fact 'Mother May I' because all the players can do is test their actions against the GM's conception of what LG is. They aren't playing to find out the ramifications of their own character's essential nature, they are playing to find out what logic and idiosyncratic definitions the GM is going to use to define them!

Systems like alignment are poison to real character-defining play. Instead you find things like DW's bonds, or BW's beliefs, which are concrete enough for the GM/game to TEST. So DW lets me assert "I will protect the halfling, no matter what." and then it asks the GM to put that to the test with "OK, the unstoppable 10,000 lb iron golem is about run over the halfling, what do you do?"

 

[pemerton]

all the players can do is test their actions against the GM's conception of what LG is.

<snip>

Systems like alignment are poison to real character-defining play.

Certainly, if the GM gets to adjudicate/enforce alignment.

There is an additional thing, too, which is a point I made (I think more than once) in the "narrativist 9-point alignment" thread.

Good, as defined across Gygax's PHB and DMG, encompasses all the major post-enlightenment accounts of human wellbeing/flourishing: Benthamite consequentialism; human rights; dignity; common good; etc.

And evil is also clearly explained, as being an attitude, and accompanying behaviour, that recognises none of those things as a constraint on the pursuit of self-regarding desires.

So the alignment system simply has nothing interesting to say about the debate between (say) utilitarians and Kantians; or between those who believe in "supreme emergency" in just war theory, and those who don't.

The question of what to do with Goblin babies may or may not be an interesting one - I tend to think that it's poorly framed, at least in the versions of it that I see people talk about - but it's not one on which the alignment system sheds any light. I mean, the hero who kills the Goblins is pursuing some sort of conception of the good (say, a consequentialist one, or a common good one) and is not acting on a self-regarding desire. So they are not evil, and plausibly are good, within the framework of alignment as presented.

A table who wants to debate whether or not they did the right or wrong thing will thus receive no guidance from the alignment framework; and a GM who wants to impose their own moral vision - as per your post - is not implementing a game rule.

 

[pawsplay]

Well, this leads indirectly to another significant point, transparency. 'Lawful Good' is such an entirely artificial and abstract construct that it cannot reliably be mapped to any particular in-game behavior. I'm pretty sure the thread @pemerton linked to above makes this point, though I didn't go reread it. Thus play isn't PRINCIPLED at all in practice, it is in fact 'Mother May I' because all the players can do is test their actions against the GM's conception of what LG is. They aren't playing to find out the ramifications of their own character's essential nature, they are playing to find out what logic and idiosyncratic definitions the GM is going to use to define them!

Well, my foremost criticism of DW is that it encourages "Mother May I?" play, so I'm not sure where that puts us now. I mean, the GM in DW can't tell me what my character's essential nature is. So either it's either what comes out in play, or it's nothing at all. And that's exactly as true for alignment. "Lawful Good" is artificial and abstract, but it's at least an agreed upon area of discussion. There really is nothing more wrong than the logical and idiosyncratic definitions of who my character is. And that's exactly what comes to the fore if the GM's concept of "theme" is in friction with what I want to present.

AW and the like are supposed to be a strong dialectic between the actions of the characters and the "premise." But in practice, this can actually turn into a form of competition. I'm not saying that is a particular weakness of PbtA games, mind you. It's exactly the same as with "the paladin falls" situations where the GM's conception of LG does not agree with the player's. If the PbtA game is about "living in a world where human relationships can be taken by those in power," there is still a lot of room for friction if the the GM and the players don't agree on how relationships work. Eg. Recently I told someone on Facebook you can't really make someone do anything, not really, and they wanted to argue that we were constantly being manipulated by others against our will. And I was ready to concede the second while still firmly believing the first, but they weren't having it, and flounced out of the discussion.

 

[Aldarc]

Well, my foremost criticism of DW is that it encourages "Mother May I?" play, so I'm not sure where that puts us now. I mean, the GM in DW can't tell me what my character's essential nature is. So either it's either what comes out in play, or it's nothing at all. And that's exactly as true for alignment. "Lawful Good" is artificial and abstract, but it's at least an agreed upon area of discussion. There really is nothing wrong than the logical and idiosyncratic definitions of who my character is. And that's exactly what comes to the fore if the GM's concept of "theme" is in friction with what I want to present.

AW and the like are supposed to be a strong dialectic between the actions of the characters and the "premise." But in practice, this can actually turn into a form of competition. I'm not saying that is a particular weakness of PbtA games, mind you. It's exactly the same as with "the paladin falls" situations where the GM's conception of LG does not agree with the player's. If the PbtA game is about "living in a world where human relationships can be taken by those in power," there is still a lot of room for friction if the the GM and the players don't agree on how relationships work. Eg. Recently I told someone on Facebook you can't really make someone do anything, not really, and they wanted to argue that we were constantly being manipulated by others against our will. And I was ready to concede the second while still firmly believing the first, but they weren't having it, and flounced out of the discussion.

This post feels so detached from my entire experiences of playing DW and PbtA games. If you believe this to be a valid criticism of DW, then I doubt that there will be much seeing eye-to-eye about games at all.

 

[pawsplay]

This post feels so detached from my entire experiences of playing DW and PbtA games. If you believe this to be a valid criticism of DW, then I doubt that there will be much seeing eye-to-eye about games at all.

Well, that may be the case.

As far as my experience, I grew up in an era where a lot of games just didn't have a lot of rules. So, "The dragon breathes fire, roll against X," where X was whatever the GM felt was appropriate, and the outcome was whatever they thought it should be, makes an unwelcome return in the form of Moves that are "make a check against something bad the GM says happens." The GM in a PbtA game can substantially ramp up the difficulty of certain encounters simply by setting whatever stakes they want, and by calling for more and more Moves (with the average result costing you something each and every time).

Again, I'm not arguing that PbtA games are punitive, just that they aren't different in that respect. There are a lot of tools in PbtA that can be used as a bludgeon if the players don't "play right."

 

[Aldarc]

The GM in a PbtA game can substantially ramp up the difficulty of certain encounters simply by setting whatever stakes they want, and by calling for more and more Moves (with the average result costing you something each and every time).

Again, I'm not arguing that PbtA games are punitive, just that they aren't different in that respect. There are a lot of tools in PbtA that can be used as a bludgeon if the players don't "play right."

There are guidelines, principles, and conditions that must be met for the GM to call for a Move roll, most particularly when the action declarations of the players for their characters meet those conditions. One of the biggest mistakes when running PbtA is calling for moves as if they were just skill rolls or checks in a d20 or BRP system. What you say here reminds me of the aforementioned tendency for some d20 GMs to run PbtA games as if they were d20 games.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, my foremost criticism of DW is that it encourages "Mother May I?" play, so I'm not sure where that puts us now. I mean, the GM in DW can't tell me what my character's essential nature is. So either it's either what comes out in play, or it's nothing at all. And that's exactly as true for alignment. "Lawful Good" is artificial and abstract, but it's at least an agreed upon area of discussion. There really is nothing more wrong than the logical and idiosyncratic definitions of who my character is. And that's exactly what comes to the fore if the GM's concept of "theme" is in friction with what I want to present.

Well, not meaning this as 'fighting words', but I don't have any particular regard for your analysis of DW/PbtA, it is just off-base. It certainly doesn't correspond to any PbtA play (using several rule sets) that I've engaged in.

As for alignment, it is a complete s**t show. I mean, you've been posting here for TWENTY YEARS, you cannot possibly with a straight face believe that alignment means diddly squat. Sure, some statements about what would constitute, say, Lawful Good behavior are likely to elicit a degree of consensus, but not a lot. At best they will be extreme examples. Alignment tends to lead to nothing but very stereotyped kinds of shallow moral questioning. I mean, just read post #63, @pemerton hits the nail right on the head!

AW and the like are supposed to be a strong dialectic between the actions of the characters and the "premise." But in practice, this can actually turn into a form of competition. I'm not saying that is a particular weakness of PbtA games, mind you. It's exactly the same as with "the paladin falls" situations where the GM's conception of LG does not agree with the player's. If the PbtA game is about "living in a world where human relationships can be taken by those in power," there is still a lot of room for friction if the the GM and the players don't agree on how relationships work. Eg. Recently I told someone on Facebook you can't really make someone do anything, not really, and they wanted to argue that we were constantly being manipulated by others against our will. And I was ready to concede the second while still firmly believing the first, but they weren't having it, and flounced out of the discussion.

I'm not sure what your example is saying about the nature of RP in, lets pick Apocalypse World since it has the most extreme focus on relationships. In AW the world is crumbling, scarcity is growing. The PCs generally fall into a category of people that are either upholding some level of social cohesion, or are maybe attempting to force themselves into positions within whatever is left of society. This produces the 'pressure cooker' kinds of scenarios where people's values and relationships will come into conflict, either with those of others, or with practical necessity. Whether or not people can be 'made to do things' or not may be important, but the question isn't the fairly unrealistic ideal of whether free will exists at some absolute limit, but more about what are you going to do in order to make people do/want to do whatever gets you what you want/need. At what point will you resist being manipulated? At what cost? What if you just go along? All sorts of questions can be asked in play. I won't pretend to be able to say how much that reflects how people actually work in real life, RP is inevitably a bit different from the real world. Still, at least within the context of the milieu AW can ask, and answer, real questions, and the game provides the freedom to portray that and the consequences/aftermath.

OTOH what really does alignment do? It simply posits some very narrow definitions of moral theories that barely even correspond with the sorts of actual real-world things we face as moral agents. Again I direct you to @pemerton's post #63. What does D&D alignment have to say about a question like "Is it morally acceptable to kill certain people, regardless of concepts of law or justice, in order to promote the good of the whole community?" D&D can say NOTHING on this subject, and where any given GM would come down on a particular instantiation of this question in play is completely arbitrary. Alignment labels will not help you even a tiny bit here. Yet THESE are the sorts of questions that actually face people, especially if they're acting in significant social roles, like as heroes or something like that. This means that alignment is also pretty much toothless in signaling what we want to engage with on this front. It's fine in terms of adding color to your game, the LG party wants the trappings of being 'good guys', the shiny armor, the place in the Sun, etc. Otherwise it's worthless.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, that may be the case.

As far as my experience, I grew up in an era where a lot of games just didn't have a lot of rules. So, "The dragon breathes fire, roll against X," where X was whatever the GM felt was appropriate, and the outcome was whatever they thought it should be, makes an unwelcome return in the form of Moves that are "make a check against something bad the GM says happens." The GM in a PbtA game can substantially ramp up the difficulty of certain encounters simply by setting whatever stakes they want, and by calling for more and more Moves (with the average result costing you something each and every time).

Again, I'm not arguing that PbtA games are punitive, just that they aren't different in that respect. There are a lot of tools in PbtA that can be used as a bludgeon if the players don't "play right."

Well, first of all, if you read the rules for AW or DW they don't grant any sort of absolute authority, there's no 'rule 0' kind of concept there. Yes, the GM has the job of deciding when a given move is triggered, and/or which move that is, when players declare actions. However, moves don't just 'happen', the GM doesn't suddenly just say "Jimmy, roll Defy Danger +WIS or else!"

The way things ACTUALLY work is, Jimmy contemplates some action and starts a dialog in order to decide what the options are, the potential stakes for various options, etc. Then there's a back-and-forth where the GM proposes specific moves that would be triggered, and possibly even sequences, like "Oh, you'll have to DD+DEX to avoid the spikes on his back, and then you can try to slit his throat, but it will take 10 damage to get a clean kill, and if you fail you're going to take damage and be impaled on the spike! If you get 7-9, you're still going to take damage back, but you won't be impaled." OK, Jimmy can decide if he wants to deal with that, or maybe his bond with the dwarf just wasn't that important to him...

There are a few details with DW bonds that I think could afford to be tweaked that would be helpful. Like, suppose I decline to exercise my "I will defend the halfling no matter what!" in a situation where it OBVIOUSLY should apply. I think that qualifies as resolving the bond, you simply proved that you don't ACTUALLY value that relationship. I note that a lot of DW players don't seem to do this when they probably should. The GM can be pretty instrumental here in making this subsystem really have some heft.

 

[pawsplay]

There are guidelines, principles, and conditions that must be met for the GM to call for a Move roll, most particularly when the action declarations of the players for their characters meet those conditions. One of the biggest mistakes when running PbtA is calling for moves as if they were just skill rolls or checks in a d20 or BRP system. What you say here reminds me of the aforementioned tendency for some d20 GMs to run PbtA games as if they were d20 games.

This is just saying that you can run a PbtA or a d20 game as if they were a d20 game. The game will not arrest you from doing this. In effect, this is not a difference between the games.

What does D&D alignment have to say about a question like "Is it morally acceptable to kill certain people, regardless of concepts of law or justice, in order to promote the good of the whole community?" D&D can say NOTHING on this subject, and where any given GM would come down on a particular instantiation of this question in play is completely arbitrary. Alignment labels will not help you even a tiny bit here. Yet THESE are the sorts of questions that actually face people, especially if they're acting in significant social roles, like as heroes or something like that.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Addressing the premise does not mean answering the question before you even start play. The fact that there is no one-size-fits-all answer to such a dilemma is precisely what makes such a question interesting. Apocalypse World "says nothing" about the exact same premise, which can just as easily arise in play. The idea that an RPG has the "right" answer encoded in rules actually sounds pretty antithetical to Story Now.