What Games do you think are Neotrad?

[Neonchameleon]

Things I see concomitant but not at all definitive (but are definitive for not being Trad):

• metacurrency
• fine grained results (more than just CS/S/F/CF)
• Story as a trump over rules at the GM side
• Rule 0 is "Don't be a «bleep»"

I'd put Tails from the Loop as neotrad, but not the other games I've run within Year Zero engine. They're not trad, but not quite neotrad, as they tend to have REALLY rough combat systems. Dragonbane included.

Hmm... interesting list of games you're kicking out of Trad there. Marvel FASERIP is loaded with Metacurrency (and a lot of systems like GURPS have just a splash), Rolemaster is all about the fine grained results, and the entire WoD line took story as a trump over rules - and need I talk about Dragonlance.

If you're kicking out both the oWoD and Rolemaster you're massively redefining what's normally taken to be trad.

 

[TwoSix]

If you're kicking out both the oWoD and Rolemaster you're massively redefining what's normally taken to be trad.

If oWoD isn't trad, nothing means anything, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria. oWoD is the traddiest trad game that ever tradded.

 

[innerdude]

The things I think typify neotrad are

• Fully build characters by choices, not fortune.
• Provisions for cheating death of a PC.
• GM centric play
• formalized mechanics intended to be used

Things I see concomitant but not at all definitive (but are definitive for not being Trad):

• metacurrency
• fine grained results (more than just CS/S/F/CF)
• Story as a trump over rules at the GM side
• Rule 0 is "Don't be a «bleep»"

I'd put Tails from the Loop as neotrad, but not the other games I've run within Year Zero engine. They're not trad, but not quite neotrad, as they tend to have REALLY rough combat systems. Dragonbane included.

This list seems like a good set of properties for identifying neotrad mechanics / systems.

Looking it over, I can immediately pinpoint Genesys as a system that meets pretty much every criterion. The One Ring (though I've only read it but not played it) also seems to be strongly oriented in this direction as well.

I'm not familiar at all with most of the Free League systems (YZE), nor Modiphius' 2d20. It's been noted that these seem to have neotrad leanings/tendencies, but I'd be curious how each of them plugs into these criteria.

It's interesting that D&D of any variety, and 5e in particular, has almost no neotrad DNA, yet its most influential proponents (the Critical Role team) have thoroughly drifted it in that direction.

*Edit -- I'm also very curious now how much "neotrad" aligns to what Eero Tuovinen describes as "princess play" in this essay, and that "neotrad" seems to be more of what he calls a technical agenda rather than a creative agenda. (See the comments in the essay around "blorb" style play). It's also fascinating (apropos of nothing) that he categorizes Dungeon World as a "simulationist" system in the context of his breakdown.

 

[pemerton]

I'm also very curious now how much "neotrad" aligns to what Eero Tuovinen describes as "princess play" in this essay

In my view, quite a bit. That's related to something (I think) I said upthread: that the Edwards' discussion of sim tends to focus on GM-driven sim, but neo-trad is more player-driven.

 

[thefutilist]

*Edit -- I'm also very curious now how much "neotrad" aligns to what Eero Tuovinen describes as "princess play" in this essay, and that "neotrad" seems to be more of what he calls a technical agenda rather than a creative agenda. (See the comments in the essay around "blorb" style play). It's also fascinating (apropos of nothing) that he categorizes Dungeon World as a "simulationist" system in the context of his breakdown.

In modern GNS terms, where we get rid of the S and so are left with G and N. Then, let’s say about half of how of all play involves people trying to achieve an N agenda. Whether they know it or not and most of them don’t.

So seen through a GNS lens, most groupings of play style are really just dysfunctional N but the dysfunction may take predictable forms. Predictable because of how the systematic failures of common play systems tend to warp/condition the story instinct.


O.C and genre sim are two such dysfunctions and through the GNS prism you’d get something like:


Both play styles developed because of how authority is distributed (badly) and they’re both reactions to that core dysfunction.

Genre sim: So because of how authority is distributed we end up with weird ideas about what a story is and technical issues because we can’t make the story ‘go’. The fix is basically to use genre as our social guiding light and the reward for play.

O.C: Is one common reaction to sts (Vampire/2E/message board play). Given that authority break down can’t make play ‘go’, you just end up investing and day dreaming about a character. The fix is that the other participants recognise the character and that becomes the social reward for play. (princess play is here)

So on a design level, you see a lot of fixes of secondary dysfunctions. If the primary dysfunction is fixed you play Sorcerer (I’m throwing a bone to those who vehemently disagree with me)

So O.C play tends toward just investing the GM with authority and the secondary fixes are all about getting rid of the superfluous stuff. Thing is, why bother? You don’t actually need to design for O.C play.

Genre sim has seen a variety of designs. I think FATE is the break through game but a lot of PbtA can be put in this category (which is why I think Eero puts Dungeon World here). If you go back in time then Feng Shui might be one of the first genre sim games.

I’ve given my thoughts on how neo-trad plays into this elsewhere in the thread. The brief version is that it’s Vampire but taking the peripheral rules more seriously.

If you don’t buy into GNS then you’d need a different analysis and many such are given in this thread. I do buy into GNS and this shows how extreme it is. Also why it’s hated. You can have all these really emotional, cathartic experiences, weep at the gaming table, have a genuine connection with the GM as they understand your character. Exult together as you hit the perfect notes of a genre, that you’ve mutually created. And an N dude will come along, put a hand on your shoulder, look at you sadly and say ‘are done with the pastiche yet?’

It’s really patronising.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

This list seems like a good set of properties for identifying neotrad mechanics / systems.

Looking it over, I can immediately pinpoint Genesys as a system that meets pretty much every criterion. The One Ring (though I've only read it but not played it) also seems to be strongly oriented in this direction as well.

I'm not familiar at all with most of the Free League systems (YZE), nor Modiphius' 2d20. It's been noted that these seem to have neotrad leanings/tendencies, but I'd be curious how each of them plugs into these criteria.

It's interesting that D&D of any variety, and 5e in particular, has almost no neotrad DNA, yet its most influential proponents (the Critical Role team) have thoroughly drifted it in that direction.

*Edit -- I'm also very curious now how much "neotrad" aligns to what Eero Tuovinen describes as "princess play" in this essay, and that "neotrad" seems to be more of what he calls a technical agenda rather than a creative agenda. (See the comments in the essay around "blorb" style play). It's also fascinating (apropos of nothing) that he categorizes Dungeon World as a "simulationist" system in the context of his breakdown.

Princess Play and Dollhouse Play both seem like key components of OC (again, not committing to a distinction between that and neotrad) and in some ways those actually describe a seeming tension from earlier neotrad threads: whether "power gaming character optimization" is an element of OC play and how that squares with the "character expression is key" elements, as they say that a style of play is based on multiple of these things-- in games that feature instrumental play, char op emphasizes the empowerment elements of princess play, and adds a metagame that you can play to spice up the dollhouse (building out individual characters, ideally talking builds with the other players, and even creating cross-party synergies, especially in 4e.)

Their description of not moving on from a specific role vaguely reminds me of maybe my favorite author, Mercedes Lackey, most of her high fantasy books have the same basic pattern-- young person leaves a variously dysfunctional and mundane domestic life behind after being chosen by a magical talking animal (Suncats, Companions, Unicorns, even Bondbirds, Elemental-driven Automata bound by the empire they were previously citizens of that they haven't figured out how to actually free yet) for certain reasons, matures via their close relationship with this magical talking animal and their relationships with more worldly and sophisticated people (Heralds, Hawkbrothers, Elves and Wildmages, Otherfolk), and then applies their unique talents to save the kingdom/world/court and take their place as a servant of the people.

But what's really cool to me about it, is that she plays with that basic pattern in so many different ways that despite being the model for most of those stories (come to think of it, I don't know if the elemental masters books follow it, the Shadow Grail stuff doesn't) the stories themselves feel radically different, there are so many permutations, fun characters, and plot differences that the core ideas she keeps coming back to don't get old, and I think that's sort of what the ideal, matured version of that is like-- you can be comfortable in your archetypes, but you need to explore new facts of that thing. Sometimes I think it's a limitation of very bespoke systems, that something like playbook play can push you to have a very specific narrative, but because of the incentives and structures, it's a little harder to play with that idea in a new way, the emulation presented is more specific.

It's not strict though, Masks can do multiple different kinds of "Robin" archetype character, provided you're willing to switch playbooks from protégé to de-emphasize batman, and there is some wiggle room based on like, the personality of that mentor and your willingness to clash with them up front vs. later.

 

[Aldarc]

Their description of not moving on from a specific role vaguely reminds me of maybe my favorite author, Mercedes Lackey, most of her high fantasy books have the same basic pattern-- young person leaves a variously dysfunctional and mundane domestic life behind after being chosen by a magical talking animal (Suncats, Companions, Unicorns, even Bondbirds, Elemental-driven Automata bound by the empire they were previously citizens of that they haven't figured out how to actually free yet) for certain reasons, matures via their close relationship with this magical talking animal and their relationships with more worldly and sophisticated people (Heralds, Hawkbrothers, Elves and Wildmages, Otherfolk), and then applies their unique talents to save the kingdom/world/court and take their place as a servant of the people.

But what's really cool to me about it, is that she plays with that basic pattern in so many different ways that despite being the model for most of those stories (come to think of it, I don't know if the elemental masters books follow it, the Shadow Grail stuff doesn't) the stories themselves feel radically different, there are so many permutations, fun characters, and plot differences that the core ideas she keeps coming back to don't get old, and I think that's sort of what the ideal, matured version of that is like-- you can be comfortable in your archetypes, but you need to explore new facts of that thing. Sometimes I think it's a limitation of very bespoke systems, that something like playbook play can push you to have a very specific narrative, but because of the incentives and structures, it's a little harder to play with that idea in a new way, the emulation presented is more specific.

Have you played Green Ronin's Blue Rose TTRPG, whether the True20 version or the newer AGE version?

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Have you played Green Ronin's Blue Rose TTRPG, whether the True20 version or the newer AGE version?

I can't say that I have, what's the intersection?

 

[Aldarc]

I can't say that I have, what's the intersection?

It's a Romantic Fantasy setting/game inspired by authors like Mercedes Lackey, Tamora Pierce, Diane Duane, etc. It even features playable psychic animals with players possibly having magical talents.

Jeremy Crawford even helped work on the original True20 game - with John Snead, Steve Kenson, Dawn Elliot - and he wrote the forward for the new AGE version.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

It's a Romantic Fantasy setting/game inspired by authors like Mercedes Lackey, Tamora Pierce, Diane Duane, etc. It even features playable psychic animals with players possibly having magical talents.

Jeremy Crawford even helped work on the original True20 game - with John Snead, Steve Kenson, Dawn Elliot - and he wrote the forward for the new AGE version.

Oh thats actually really cool, ill take a look sometime.