Power Points for powers - solves a lot of issues

Stalker0 · Jan 31, 2009

In a power point system, there are a few ways to address the spamming of powers that 77M (and myself) are concerned with.

1) Escalate costs for the level of a power. 5th level daily costs more to use than a 1st level one. You have to track a bit more, but it can do the job.

2) First use is free, then you have to pay. You can use each power you have once without cost, the subsequent ones costs X amount. This is more of a bandaid, you'll still see spamming with occasional, "I'll use my 'free power' right now.

3) Each use of a power costs more than the last. This is the most effective way to prevent spamming, but its also the most complicated to track.

the Jester · Jan 31, 2009

My god but you guys are complicating a simple system.

The problem with power points in 4e in a nutshell, imho.

Sadrik · Jan 31, 2009

the Jester said:
My god but you guys are complicating a simple system.

The problem with power points in 4e in a nutshell, imho.

Characters get their Prime Ability in Power Points (PP) to use their powers. Paladin, Cleric, Warlock, and Ranger use the higher of their two Prime Abilities.

They also 1/2 their level.

For instance, a 10th level Fighter with an 18 STR gets 23 PP.

Dailies cost 10 PP to use
Encounter cost 5 PP to use
At-will cost 1 PP to use
(it also costs 2 PP/round to maintain a power)

You may "recharge" your PP during a short rest but your maximum PP goes down by 4.

For instance, after 4 recharges a character's maximum PP would be -16.

You may "recover" all of your PP with an extended rest.

------------------------

More complicated - yes
More interesting - yes

Sadrik · Jan 31, 2009

Stalker0 said:
In a power point system, there are a few ways to address the spamming of powers that 77M (and myself) are concerned with.

1) Escalate costs for the level of a power. 5th level daily costs more to use than a 1st level one. You have to track a bit more, but it can do the job.

2) First use is free, then you have to pay. You can use each power you have once without cost, the subsequent ones costs X amount. This is more of a bandaid, you'll still see spamming with occasional, "I'll use my 'free power' right now.

3) Each use of a power costs more than the last. This is the most effective way to prevent spamming, but its also the most complicated to track.

I am not too concerned with these kinds of problems,
Note the fighter example above, A level 10 fighter with 23 PP can do 2 dailies and 3 at-will, he can do 1 daily, 1 encounter and 8 at-wills or 4 encounter and 3 at-wills etc.

Point being, characters won't have so many PP that they are just carelessly spamming their best power - it truly is limited enough that they should be making tough decisions on what powers and when. This strikes the best chord (for me) in allowing the versatility into the game without making it game-breaking.

Stalker0 · Jan 31, 2009

Why base power points off of your prime stat? You already get a tremendous slew of advantages for your prime stat, why push that even further?

Just give everyone the same amount of power points at any given level.

Also, I still don't see the advantage in putting PP cost on at-wills. They are meant to be at will. With this system you will likely see them used less frequently anyway. You get a lot of tracking and imo not a lot of benefit but pricing out at-wills.

My god but you guys are complicating a simple system.

The inevitable tradeoff in a pen and paper system....simplicity to operate vs flexibility of choice.

The desired goal of this thread is to increase the flexibility and frequency a person can use powers. That requires something more complicated than core 4e.

Now the question is how far do you want to take that? Some are going to want a small tweak, others want a big change to the system. Pick your poison.

Sadrik · Jan 31, 2009

Stalker0 said:
Why base power points off of your prime stat? You already get a tremendous slew of advantages for your prime stat, why push that even further?

Just give everyone the same amount of power points at any given level.

This just continues the trend with the game. You need an 18 or 20, so I can base the PP system off of those numbers pretty accurately. Do you think that characters without an 18 or 20 should get some sort of advantage that those with an 18 or 20 have?

I suppose there could be a character with a 14 or 16 in their prime ability, however unlikely... Those characters should die soon anyway for a variety of reasons: they will drag the party down, cause real time grind problems for everyone sitting at the table.

I suppose if you divorce the idea of stats from class abilities completely. Not a bad idea actually, give everyone a new ability/attribute called "class" make it a 20/+5 and then everyone has the same ability with everything. You could have a weak fighter, an uncharismatic paladin etc. This is a good idea actually. but perhaps for another thread.

Stalker0 said:
Also, I still don't see the advantage in putting PP cost on at-wills. They are meant to be at will. With this system you will likely see them used less frequently anyway. You get a lot of tracking and imo not a lot of benefit but pricing out at-wills.

I see the advantage, I don't like unlimited magic missiles, they are beyond my realm of believability. The visual of the wizard zapping a wall for several hours to break through is a little too fantasy for me. At least with martial exploits you are limited by ammunition or the weapon dulling etc. This does not exit for blasty at-wills. As always, ymmv.

Stalker0 · Jan 31, 2009

Sadrik said:
This just continues the trend with the game. You need an 18 or 20, so I can base the PP system off of those numbers pretty accurately. Do you think that characters without an 18 or 20 should get some sort of advantage that those with an 18 or 20 have?

What I'm saying is that if you consider 18-20 in the prime stat already very good (to the point where in your post you believe it be mandatory) then why make it even better?

If a person wants to have a 16 in their prime stat, why penalize them more than they already are? Just give everyone the same amount of power points.

Zelc · Feb 1, 2009

I have a feeling this is going to really punish the non-Strength melee characters and the non-Dexterity ranged characters. Those guys won't even have basic attacks to fall back on when they run out of power points. The way 4E math works is if you don't improve the ability at every level up, you pretty much can't hit. So it's not like a Wizard can just pick up a bow or something and start shooting; he might very well need to roll a 19 to hit with a Dexterity attack.

I have to ask, what are you trying to accomplish by making this change? You don't seem to care about balance issues. You want people to use their daily/encounter powers more, but you punish them a lot (as in make them useless) if they use their powers too much.

Sadrik · Feb 1, 2009

Stalker0 said:
What I'm saying is that if you consider 18-20 in the prime stat already very good (to the point where in your post you believe it be mandatory) then why make it even better?

If a person wants to have a 16 in their prime stat, why penalize them more than they already are? Just give everyone the same amount of power points.

If someone has a 16 or worse yet a 14, then they are causing a whole host of problems for the group. The parties average damage goes way down and this will make the game even more grindy than it already is.

That said, I am a fan of making a "power stat" make it a 20/+5. Make the power points based off of this stat and the attack rolls for powers based off of this stat. Then, players who select a 16 in their prime stat don't make the other players sitting around the table hate them because they add 20 minutes to every fight.

Sadrik · Feb 2, 2009

Zelc said:
I have to ask, what are you trying to accomplish by making this change? You don't seem to care about balance issues. You want people to use their daily/encounter powers more, but you punish them a lot (as in make them useless) if they use their powers too much.

I do care about balance issues and I think that you illustrated the balance right there in your quote. "You want people to use their daily/encounter powers more, but you punish them a lot (as in make them useless) if they use their powers too much." If a character is going to use their powers frivolously and without abandon then they should be caught with a crossbow only barely being able to attack. How quickly we forget how a wizard worked before 4e.

I suppose the heart of this HR makes dailies expensive encounter powers and makes at-wills inexpensive encounter powers with characters becoming less powerful after each short rest.

Power Points for powers - solves a lot of issues

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